# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/301 "2015-11-02T19:53:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Collective guilt is silly. I’m OK with individual guilt, too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/302 "2015-11-02T19:56:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So what? That’s not much of a defence of your thesis there. If more White people shut up out of guilt than fear, then alleviating fear is not the main thing for anti-racists to concern ourselves with. > [@](#): > > No, trying to make sure the bad ol’ racists are always front and center and those annoying “good” white people don’t spoil things by not being racist. Too complicated for you. IME most people are racist, there’s very few good people at all, of any race. Not complicated at all. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/303 "2015-11-02T19:59:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not much of a defence of your thesis there. If more White people shut up out of guilt than fear How do you know there are more guilty than fearful? And when did I say there were more fearful than guilty? And more important, how do you tell the difference, and what if you fail? > [@](#): > > IME most people are racist, there’s very few good people at all, of any race. But you’re one of the rare good ones. You must be proud of yourself. > [@](#): > > Not complicated at all. Yeah, nice and simple. Don’t concern yourself with complexities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/304 "2015-11-02T20:02:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > How do you know there are more guilty than fearful? I don’t _know_, that’s why I couched it as I did. > [@](#): > > And when did I say there were more fearful than guilty? Didn’t say you did. But it’s the logical inference of you citing “millions”, that you think numbers matter. > [@](#): > > But you’re one of the rare good ones. You must be proud of yourself. My arm hurts from patting my back, I can tell you that. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Yeah, nice and simple. Don’t concern yourself with complexities. Not when the supposed complexity is a smokescreen against rightful action, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/305 "2015-11-02T20:07:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t _know_, Cool. > [@](#): > > :Not when the supposed complexity is a smokescreen against rightful action, I don’t. My beliefs and concerns are legitimate, thoughtful and honest. Please don’t question my motives. That is not your place. If you think I’m wrong about the facts, say so. Once again, the attitude I’m talking about rears its ugly head. I am not secretly trying to excuse racism. I am trying to fight it. It is not an easy task, it is…complex. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/306 "2015-11-02T20:19:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My beliefs and concerns are legitimate, thoughtful and honest. Please don’t question my motives. I apologize - “smokescreen” implies intent, that wasn’t what I meant - “fog” or “cloud” would work just as well. The complexity is not a real blocker, but you act as though it is. > [@](#): > > That is not your place. If you think I’m wrong about the facts, say so. I do think you’re wrong, I think the chilling effect has had more of an impact on petty racists keeping their moths shut than non-racists being afraid. > [@](#): > > It is not an easy task, it is…complex. It really, really isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/307 "2015-11-02T20:25:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It really, really isn’t. Well, we’re down to you saying it’s not and me saying it is. Not much more to talk about. All I can say is if it’s simple, why is this thread so long and complicated? Is it all a smokescreen? Am I and everyone else a racist just trying to muddle things for the cause? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/308 "2015-11-02T20:29:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, we’re down to you saying it’s not and me saying it is. Not much more to talk about. All I can say is if it’s simple, why is this thread so long and complicated? I said it was simple, I didn’t say it was _easy._ > [@](#): > > Is it all a smokescreen? No, I just think people overthink things. > [@](#): > > Am I and everyone else a racist just trying to muddle things for the cause? Not that I’ve seen. But you’re not actually helping, either. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/309 "2015-11-02T20:30:15Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Am I and everyone else **a racist** just trying to muddle things for the cause? Emphasis added. You seem to be really caught up with the label. “A racist.” No one is calling you “a racist.” I \*am \*racist. I fight it. We all are. We should fight it. But being _racist_, at certain times, in certain ways, does not make me _a_ racist. You get that point, right? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/310 "2015-11-02T20:31:32Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Emphasis added. > > You seem to be really caught up with the label. “A racist.” No one is calling you “a racist.” > > I \*am \*racist. I fight it. We all are. We should fight it. > > But being _racist_, at certain times, in certain ways, does not make me _a_ racist. > > You get that point, right? This is so…complicated. Please see my comment above about how I see the term “racist” and “a racist.” Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/311 "2015-11-02T20:32:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I said it was simple, I didn’t say it was _easy._ That sounds complicated. > [@](#): > > No, I just think people overthink things. And sometimes they underthink things. I know which I fear more. > [@](#): > > But you’re not actually helping, either. I think I am. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/312 "2015-11-02T20:41:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That sounds complicated. No. Hard =/= complicated. Rolling a rock uphill is hard, but it’s not complicated. > [@](#): > > And sometimes they underthink things. I know which I fear more. From the people on my side, I prefer underthinking. Underthinkers can sometimes be told better, overthinkers, not so much > [@](#): > > I think I am. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/313 "2015-11-02T20:41:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is so…complicated. It really isn’t. No one is calling you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/314 "2015-11-02T21:11:00Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Hell, I’ve been calling Chris Christie a political “thug” for a few years now. > > I guess I’ve been just confusing him with Ben Carson. > > The black community embraced the coolness of thuggitude and surprise surprise it has come back to bite em in posterior. > > I don’t care. Do you not realize what you just did? You said bad stuff about an entire race based on the actions of some of them. That’s racism. You then said that that an entire race deserves to be bitten because of the above. That’s even more racism. You just announced that you use the word for racist reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/315 "2015-11-02T21:22:14Z")
**lance** : wanting to hold on to your language just shouldn’t be more important than not disparaging people of a certain race. Thug has become a code word for “nigger,” so it’s time to move on. You can’t reclaim it when the original meaning would also still be used against some black people. In general, when you use a term and then are told it is offensive, the correct thing to do is apologize. Then go see if a lot of people agree it is offensive. What people say a word means is what it means, so if they do, it’s offensive. And, from then on, unless you want to be offensive in the way that word is offensive, then you shouldn’t use that word. The only way to reclaim a word is for it to be a term that would previously be used against you, and you use it positively instead of negatively. That’s just not an option with “thug.” The best chance at getting it back is what I said in my first post. Make it to where this type of racism is such a distant memory that no one takes the term seriously anymore. Unfortunately, this probably won’t happen in your lifetime. Thug started out as a slur, and then became a racist slur. The only reclaiming is by the hip hop community, but they have a long, long ways to go. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/316 "2015-11-02T21:39:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Do you not realize what you just did? You said bad stuff about an entire race based on the actions of some of them. That’s racism. > > You then said that that an entire race deserves to be bitten because of the above. That’s even more racism. > > You just announced that you use the word for racist reasons. I wish to unsubscribe to your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/317 "2015-11-02T21:52:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **lance** : wanting to hold on to your language just shouldn’t be more important than not disparaging people of a certain race. Thug has become a code word for “nigger,” so it’s time to move on. You can’t reclaim it when the original meaning would also still be used against some black people. > > In general, when you use a term and then are told it is offensive, the correct thing to do is apologize. Then go see if a lot of people agree it is offensive. What people say a word means is what it means, so if they do, it’s offensive. And, from then on, unless you want to be offensive in the way that word is offensive, then you shouldn’t use that word. > > The only way to reclaim a word is for it to be a term that would previously be used against you, and you use it positively instead of negatively. That’s just not an option with “thug.” The best chance at getting it back is what I said in my first post. Make it to where this type of racism is such a distant memory that no one takes the term seriously anymore. > > Unfortunately, this probably won’t happen in your lifetime. Thug started out as a slur, and then became a racist slur. The only reclaiming is by the hip hop community, but they have a long, long ways to go. It’s meant to be offensive. Thugs are bad people. Being accurately labeled a thug should hurt your feelings and cause you to reconsider your lifestyle. But no, the problem is with people who accurately observe reality. And that’s the real issue. By limiting language you limit thought. By demonizing language instead of the behavior that provokes the language you shift the debate from those who act thuggish to those who use an apparently non-PC word. It’s a lot like illegal immigrant being replaced by future Democrat voter, I mean undocumented. Orwellian tactics are shameful. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/318 "2015-11-02T22:12:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m OK with individual guilt, too. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/319 "2015-11-02T23:06:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **lance** : wanting to hold on to your language just shouldn’t be more important than not disparaging people of a certain race. But there are so many problems with just giving in. > [@](#): > > Thug has become a code word for “nigger,” so it’s time to move on. So Obama used a code word for “nigger” when describing black rioters? See how there are problems with just giving in? > [@](#): > > You can’t reclaim it when the original meaning would also still be used against some black people. > > In general, when you use a term and then are told it is offensive, the correct thing to do is apologize. Then go see if a lot of people agree it is offensive. What people say a word means is what it means, so if they do, it’s offensive. And, from then on, unless you want to be offensive in the way that word is offensive, then you shouldn’t use that word. What about “niggardly?” [http://www.cnn.com/US/9902/04/dc.word.flap/](http://www.cnn.com/US/9902/04/dc.word.flap/) What do you think of this incident? He was told it was a slur, so it’s a slur, right? > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, this probably won’t happen in your lifetime. Thug started out as a slur, and then became a racist slur. The only reclaiming is by the hip hop community, but they have a long, long ways to go. I can simply use it and tell people I don’t consider it a slur. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/320 "2015-11-02T23:07:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > It really isn’t. > > No one is calling you a racist. I didn’t say they were. But yet, people keep saying that “everyone is racist,” so there’s that. But that’s not my point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=17)