# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/341 "2015-11-03T16:19:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not particularly interested in motives, mostly because it’s impossible to know for sure the motives of others. So I just look at behavior. I’ll take that as a no. But if you only look at behavior, you can’t distinguish use of words as slurs vs. other use. Or possibly even context. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/342 "2015-11-03T16:39:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’ll take that as a no. I thought it was closer to a yes, if I understood your question correctly, I just don’t think this particularly matters for the larger question. > [@](#): > > But if you only look at behavior, you can’t distinguish use of words as slurs vs. other use. Or possibly even context. I think you can, at least some of the time. When it’s not possible, then it’s still reasonable to discuss whether one thinks it was an appropriate or inappropriate usage based on the context available. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/343 "2015-11-03T16:48:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I thought it was closer to a yes, if I understood your question correctly, I just don’t think this particularly matters for the larger question. Then I don’t understand. How can you just look at behavior - flying a confederate flag - and not motives - why they say they are flying that flag - and discern racist motive vs. non-racist motive? Isn’t racism about motive? Or if it’s about behavior, then all confederate flag-flying is racist? I am confused. > [@](#): > > I think you can, at least some of the time. When it’s not possible, then it’s still reasonable to discuss whether one thinks it was an appropriate or inappropriate usage based on the context available. Why can’t you just ask? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/344 "2015-11-03T16:50:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then I don’t understand. How can you just look at behavior - flying a confederate flag - and not motives - why they say they are flying that flag - and discern racist motive vs. non-racist motive? Isn’t racism about motive? Or if it’s about behavior, then all confederate flag-flying is racist? I am confused. I didn’t understand your question, apparently, because this confuses me. > [@](#): > > Why can’t you just ask? You can, but in my view “I didn’t mean it to be racist” doesn’t always mean that one successfully avoided doing or saying something that was racist or otherwise problematic. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/345 "2015-11-03T16:58:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t understand your question, apparently, because this confuses me. Okay but never mind, I think we’re getting there. > [@](#): > > You can, but in my view “I didn’t mean it to be racist” doesn’t always mean that one successfully avoided doing or saying something that was racist or otherwise problematic. Sure, but you could ask more questions. My point is simply that motive matters. It may not be the only thing that matters, but it’s relevant. Something I’ve been saying all along in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/346 "2015-11-03T17:03:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can, but in my view “I didn’t mean it to be racist” doesn’t always mean that one successfully avoided doing or saying something that was racist or otherwise problematic. So, donning your cape to fight racism wherever it might be—correction: whoever you imagine it might be—and indirectly labelling people as racist in the process, is more important to you than not indirectly labelling non-racists as racist. Whether it is intentional or not, _that_ is what you’re doing. And please, save the “but I might say something racist and I appreciate being called on it, because it makes me a better person” pablum. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/347 "2015-11-03T17:38:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, donning your cape to fight racism wherever it might be—correction: whoever you imagine it might be—and indirectly labelling people as racist in the process, is more important to you than not indirectly labelling non-racists as racist. > > Whether it is intentional or not, _that_ is what you’re doing. > > And please, save the “but I might say something racist and I appreciate being called on it, because it makes me a better person” pablum. Who have I (directly or indirectly) labeled as racist, and who have I incorrectly labeled as racist? I know you disagree with my arguments, but who specifically have I wronged, in your view? I’ll spare the “pablum” since you asked so nicely, but that is indeed a part of my reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/348 "2015-11-03T17:57:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Are you familiar with the theory of evolution? It generally works like that. Are you at all sure about that? It wasn’t just a sudden explosion that the main stream media started painting Republicans with ‘all the sudden’ because I can sure tell you that this time last year “thug” was a perfectly non racial word. Now someone has told you and others that it is, in fact, a racist word because, well because the MSM decided so. Where was that evolutionary process? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/349 "2015-11-03T18:05:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who have I (directly or indirectly) labeled as racist, and who have I incorrectly labeled as racist? > > I know you disagree with my arguments, but who specifically have I wronged, in your view? I’ll spare the “pablum” since you asked so nicely, but that is indeed a part of my reasoning. You do it, indirectly, overtime you insist that a statement is racist. Especially when you know, and sometimes even admit, that it is not necessarily so. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/350 "2015-11-03T18:40:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You do it, indirectly, overtime you insist that a statement is racist. Especially when you know, and sometimes even admit, that it is not necessarily so. Which cases, specifically, do you object to? Whom have I wronged, specifically? If I’ve wronged someone, I want to apologize and learn from my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/351 "2015-11-03T19:28:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which cases, specifically, do you object to? Whom have I wronged, specifically? If I’ve wronged someone, I want to apologize and learn from my mistake. You used the word “niggardly” in my presence. Apologize and learn from your mistake! [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm) Seriously, my point is that sometimes you have nothing to apologize for and not all claims of being wronged are legitimate. The above is an extreme example of that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/352 "2015-11-03T19:51:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which cases, specifically, do you object to? Whom have I wronged, specifically? If I’ve wronged someone, I want to apologize and learn from my mistake. It has to be a legitimate wronging though. Look at the tactic Islam has adopted to prevent critique. You agree with that? Using the pretense of being “wronged” or “offended” to de-facto censor? It’s ironic that the modern left has adopted one of the most dangerous tactics of an enemy of classical liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/353 "2015-11-03T20:01:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It has to be a legitimate wronging though. Look at the tactic Islam has adopted to prevent critique. You agree with that? Using the pretense of being “wronged” or “offended” to de-facto censor? It’s ironic that the modern left has adopted one of the most dangerous tactics of an enemy of classical liberalism. The excellence of this point cannot be overestimated. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/354 "2015-11-03T20:01:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It has to be a legitimate wronging though. Look at the tactic Islam has adopted to prevent critique. You agree with that? Using the pretense of being “wronged” or “offended” to de-facto censor? It’s ironic that the modern left has adopted one of the most dangerous tactics of an enemy of classical liberalism. No idea what this is responding too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/355 "2015-11-03T20:02:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It has to be a legitimate wronging though. Look at the tactic Islam has adopted to prevent critique. You agree with that? Using the pretense of being “wronged” or “offended” to de-facto censor? It’s ironic that the modern left has adopted one of the most dangerous tactics of an enemy of classical liberalism. Confused - Are you saying Islam is “the modern left?” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/356 "2015-11-03T21:08:49Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Confused - Are you saying Islam is “the modern left?” Not at all. They just have a similarity in at least one aspect. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/357 "2015-11-03T22:50:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not at all. They just have a similarity in at least one aspect. Perhaps they aren’t the only ones who share this similarity then. Perhaps groups you favor may do it too. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/358 "2015-11-03T22:59:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Perhaps they aren’t the only ones who share this similarity then. Perhaps groups you favor may do it too. Without a doubt. Censoring and demonizing speech and those who speak is not a rare property for groups that have ambitions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/359 "2015-11-04T00:07:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Without a doubt. Censoring and demonizing speech and those who speak is not a rare property for groups that have ambitions. Censoring is a far cry from condemning. The equivocation you engage in, in which you treat compulsory censorship and negative speech as equivalent responses to speech, is intellectually bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/360 "2015-11-04T00:34:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Censoring is a far cry from condemning. The equivocation you engage in, in which you treat compulsory censorship and negative speech as equivalent responses to speech, is intellectually bankrupt. Huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=19)