# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/81 "2015-10-31T01:51:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I find it really dismaying that honest, open conversation on my part got smacked by someone who “questions my motives” (with zero evidence to go on). I think that’s a big reason that racial issues make such little progress - people are so quick to judge or accuse based on nothing that other people are afraid to even talk about these things. I think that’s unfortunate. You know, just in case you actually are “open minded” and - really - want to debate this topic, I will respond. Your tactics and your position, ie, “that is not necessarily racist” make it hard to to know what your true motives are. But even if you really do want an honest debate, I see the event as being - clearly - racist. More than enough conversation both for and against that proposition has already been offered here. It needs no more discussion. You do not think it was racist. Ok. many/most of us do. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/82 "2015-10-31T02:06:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > MSo, as usual, you have people using slurs, and people using innocent words being accused of using slurs, and it’s a big mess and we all argue about it. The trick is the ones who used the slurs innocently should say “crap I did not mean to hurt you and I won’t do it again.” Instead, there is a strong tendency for them to say “Hey I didn’t mean to hurt you so I insist on my right to do exactly the same act in the future, fuck you if it hurts.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/83 "2015-10-31T02:33:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You know, just in case you actually are “open minded” and - really - want to debate this topic, I will respond. Just in case? How about you start with the assumption of good intentions. It’s common courtesy. > [@](#): > > Your tactics and your position, ie, “that is not necessarily racist” make it hard to to know what your true motives are. Really? “That is not necessarily racist” is a provocative thing to say? I don’t think so. It’s a statement. If you want to know my motives, ask. But, of course, the question remains whether my motives are the issue. > [@](#): > > But even if you really do want an honest debate, I see the event as being - clearly - racist. More than enough conversation both for and against that proposition has already been offered here. It needs no more discussion. If you are declaring that your opinion cannot be questioned, then yeah, I’d say there’s no more need for discussion. I don’t see why you get to just cut off debate by declaring that there’s nothing more new to say either. > [@](#): > > You do not think it was racist. Ok. many/most of us do. I never said it wasn’t racist. See, there’s where you’re jumping to conclusions again. I’m here for big thoughts. “Is it racist” is a boring question. I’m here for bigger ones, like “is there such thing as an objective declaration that something is either racist or not?” For one. I’m also interested in the way that other things are fair game, including culture, for such things as parties, while race is not - even though race and culture are hard to separate. I’ll elaborate if you are interested. If you think this thread is just about nailing some racists, that’s fine. You did it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/84 "2015-10-31T02:37:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The trick is the ones who used the slurs innocently should say “crap I did not mean to hurt you and I won’t do it again.” I don’t think one uses slurs innocently, unless it is unintentional. If you use a slur as a slur, you’re doing it on purpose and with the intention of slurring. > [@](#): > > Instead, there is a strong tendency for them to say “Hey I didn’t mean to hurt you so I insist on my right to do exactly the same act in the future, fuck you if it hurts.” That sounds like someone who has just been told that a word they thought was not a slur, and who didn’t intend to use it as one, was told it was. Thug is great example. I would never have thought of it as racist and never used it as such. Other people may be using it as racist, but that doesn’t mean I am, and it doesn’t mean the racists get to define the term. So yeah, I’d be mad if I was told I suddenly couldn’t use what I consider a non-racist term because now it’s racist. Of course, I should be mad at the racists for stealing it, but they aren’t around to yell at. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/85 "2015-10-31T02:43:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just in case? How about you start with the assumption of good intentions. It’s common courtesy. > > Really? “That is not necessarily racist” is a provocative thing to say? I don’t think so. It’s a statement. > > If you want to know my motives, ask. But, of course, the question remains whether my motives are the issue. > > If you are declaring that your opinion cannot be questioned, then yeah, I’d say there’s no more need for discussion. I don’t see why you get to just cut off debate by declaring that there’s nothing more new to say either. > > I never said it wasn’t racist. See, there’s where you’re jumping to conclusions again. > > I’m here for big thoughts. “Is it racist” is a boring question. I’m here for bigger ones, like “is there such thing as an objective declaration that something is either racist or not?” For one. I’m also interested in the way that other things are fair game, including culture, for such things as parties, while race is not - even though race and culture are hard to separate. I’ll elaborate if you are interested. > > If you think this thread is just about nailing some racists, that’s fine. You did it. I do doubt your motives. All that needs to be said, has already been said, yet, you want to “talk more about it”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/86 "2015-10-31T02:44:05Z")
P.S. General note on this whole thread: I find the complexities of race relations and the complexities of language, and the constant changes in both, to be fascinating issues. Here they are together. I’m not afraid to discuss either, and to challenge conventional wisdom on them to explore them. And I think constraining such conversations into little boxes where You’re Racist! if you step outside of it, just for discussion’s sake, is silly and counterproductive. We’re talking about what racism is, and how you know, and you can’t do that if the discussion is constrained by thinking you already know the answers. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/87 "2015-10-31T02:45:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I do doubt your motives. All that needs to be said, has already been said, yet, you want to “talk more about it”. Sorry, but you can’t just declare that everything that needs to be said has already been said. I have more to say. I am done caring what you think of my motives. I’ll continue the conversation with others who may be interested. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/88 "2015-10-31T02:49:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think one uses slurs innocently, unless it is unintentional. If you use a slur as a slur, you’re doing it on purpose and with the intention of slurring. When I used the phrase, I was referring to what you refer to here as using it unintentionally. > [@](#): > > That sounds like someone who has just been told that a word they thought was not a slur, and who didn’t intend to use it as one, was told it was. Thug is great example. I would never have thought of it as racist and never used it as such. Other people may be using it as racist, but that doesn’t mean I am, and it doesn’t mean the racists get to define the term. So yeah, I’d be mad if I was told I suddenly couldn’t use what I consider a non-racist term because now it’s racist. Of course, I should be mad at the racists for stealing it, but they aren’t around to yell at. …and you would continue to use it, or would stop using it? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/89 "2015-10-31T02:55:15Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > When I used the phrase, I was referring to what you refer to here as using it unintentionally. Okay, so you mean using it when you don’t believe its a slur or are unaware it could be - did I get that right? > [@](#): > > …and you would continue to use it, or would stop using it? And that is exactly the right question. Thank you. I don’t know. It depends on the word. I don’t like it when words are “stolen” by others and used to do harm. My impulse is to resist and say “no, it’s not a slur, or at least I didn’t use it as a slur.” But I know that’s a losing battle most of the time. All I can do is have elaborate conversations about it on boards like this one, I guess. I know language changes constantly, and that’s okay. What I would really object to is people instantly jumping in and assuming the worst in everyone - that everybody knows that “thug,” for instance, now has racial connotations, and that everyone who uses it is using it with racial connotations. That’s not fair. I think we should give the benefit of the doubt when people step into this minefield. Otherwise, whites and blacks just stop talking to each other or about their issues altogether, and that just makes problems fester. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/90 "2015-10-31T02:59:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, so you mean using it when you don’t believe its a slur or are unaware it could be - did I get that right? Yes. > [@](#): > > And that is exactly the right question. Thank you. > > I don’t know. It depends on the word. I don’t like it when words are “stolen” by others and used to do harm. My impulse is to resist and say “no, it’s not a slur, or at least I didn’t use it as a slur.” But I know that’s a losing battle most of the time. All I can do is have elaborate conversations about it on boards like this one, I guess. I know language changes constantly, and that’s okay. > > What I would really object to is people instantly jumping in and assuming the worst in everyone - that everybody knows that “thug,” for instance, now has racial connotations, and that everyone who uses it is using it with racial connotations. That’s not fair. I think we should give the benefit of the doubt when people step into this minefield. Otherwise, whites and blacks just stop talking to each other or about their issues altogether, and that just makes problems fester. Some people will give you the benefit of the doubt. Other people won’t. There’s not really anything you can do about that. What you can do is decide what language you yourself will use. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/91 "2015-10-31T03:05:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yes. > > Some people will give you the benefit of the doubt. Other people won’t. There’s not really anything you can do about that. What you can do is decide what language you yourself will use. But that’s the problem - can I really decide if others are busy stealing or misappropriating the words I use? Or declaring that others have done so? It kinda takes some of that decision away from me. I used to be able to use “thug” with zero racial meaning. Now I can’t. So yes, I choose, but my choices are limited and nuanced. Again, that’s not the problem - the problem is people getting instantly and completely angry about it and allowing no room for mistakes, disagreements, negotiation etc. about words. They declare that it’s racist, or it’s not, and that’s that. They treat “thug” just like the worst and most obvious racist words. It sets a trap for innocent people, and to avoid the trap, many white people just clam up and just avoid all discussion of race or even meaningful interaction with black people. I think we all need to take a breath. We’re like a dysfunctional family, the races in America, and the problem is how we talk about the problem. So I guess I can just preach about how we should give the benefit of the doubt more often and give elaborate answers to questions on boards, like this one. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/92 "2015-10-31T03:05:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think I see what you mean, but regardless of what’s actually in the “real” hip-hop culture, it’s still inappropriate to use racial slurs, in my view. Since many see “thug” and related words as a racial slur (or something similar), I think it’s a good idea to avoid such words, and reasonable for a university to sanction their use. I greatly doubt that “many” do. This is getting to be really ridiculous. Anything that _may_ be viewed as racist—is. Even if it’s not. It’s fucking ridiculous. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think this is the end of the world, and I don’t think the fraternity should have been banned for this, and it sounds like they responded reasonably. Nah, they just knew the shitstorm that would come if they didn’t knuckle under to the PC douchebags at the school. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/93 "2015-10-31T03:19:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that’s the problem - can I really decide if others are busy stealing or misappropriating the words I use? Or declaring that others have done so? It kinda takes some of that decision away from me. I used to be able to use “thug” with zero racial meaning. Now I can’t. So yes, I choose, but my choices are limited and nuanced. I don’t understand your meaning here. You began by saying “that’s the problem” but it’s not clear to me what problem you’re trying to describe. No one is asking you to decide if others are busy stealing or misappropriating the words you use. So why is it a problem if you can’t really do so? I think your post may be written under an assumption that the language you speak belongs to you. But it doesn’t. Is that something you were assuming? > [@](#): > > Again, that’s not the problem Wait, it’s _not_ the problem? > [@](#): > > - the problem is people getting instantly and completely angry about it and allowing no room for mistakes, disagreements, negotiation etc. about words. They declare that it’s racist, or it’s not, and that’s that. They treat “thug” just like the worst and most obvious racist words. It sets a trap for innocent people, and to avoid the trap, many white people just clam up and just avoid all discussion of race or even meaningful interaction with black people. I think we all need to take a breath. We’re like a dysfunctional family, the races in America, and the problem is how we talk about the problem. So I guess I can just preach about how we should give the benefit of the doubt more often and give elaborate answers to questions on boards, like this one. Sorry. You’re talking way above your paygrade (and mine too). You have nothing at all to do with how charitable people are about others’ motivations. Zero of any effort you expend in that direction will have any effect. What you _can_ do is choose which words you use when you speak and write. Do you see my point? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/94 "2015-10-31T04:07:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I greatly doubt that “many” do. This is getting to be really ridiculous. Anything that _may_ be viewed as racist—is. Even if it’s not. It’s fucking ridiculous. Fine, so we disagree here – I think it’s wise and reasonable to avoid things that lots of people might view as racist. > [@](#): > > Nah, they just knew the shitstorm that would come if they didn’t knuckle under to the PC douchebags at the school. Perhaps you’re comfortable reading their minds, but I’m not. I don’t know exactly what their motives are. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/95 "2015-10-31T04:15:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > their use. > > I greatly doubt that “many” do. This is getting to be really ridiculous. Anything that _may_ be viewed as racist—is. Even if it’s not. It’s fucking ridiculous. > > Nah, they just knew the shitstorm that would come if they didn’t knuckle under to the PC douchebags at the school. I would just like to note that I doubt the objectivity of terminology like “PC douchebag”. Please do not confuse my calling this out and registering my dissatisfaction with such a comment as being the same as the desire to further converse on the issue with you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/96 "2015-10-31T07:59:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think you meant it as a slur, **MrDibble** , but “Jew-bro” kind of sounds like one to me. I don’t think the religion of the fraternity members is relevant here. Not the religion, the ethnic makeup. It’s an overwhelmingly Jewish fraternity. Intentionally. They have a frigging Menorah in their coat of arms. The bro bit shouldn’t need explaining. It’s a frat. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/97 "2015-10-31T08:09:28Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This. The assumption in this thread that this would turn into some type of disdainful black-face farce is not a valid argument against. It’s making up shit. No, it’s going by [the past record](http://www.nwahomepage.com/news/knwa/ua-frat-sanctioned-after-disrespectful-mlk-party) of other chapters of the co-sponsoring frat… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/98 "2015-10-31T08:27:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I don’t know where you dug this up, but it is not appropriate. Don’t do it again. > > [/Moderating] Check ATMB for response… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/99 "2015-10-31T11:55:41Z")
It’s funny the extents people looking to be offended will go to. Dress like Marilyn Monroe? Sexist. Dress like the pope? Anti-Catholic bigot. Dress like a stereotypical hip-hop artist? Racist. Dress like a Martian? Red planet hater. Unless you know someones intent and can read minds put down the pitchforks. There are bigger problems in the world to deal with than some fraternity’s party. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/100 "2015-10-31T11:56:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it’s going by [the past record](http://www.nwahomepage.com/news/knwa/ua-frat-sanctioned-after-disrespectful-mlk-party) of other chapters of the co-sponsoring frat… Now THAT party was in bad taste AND racist. They deserved to get the strong reprimand they received. But you indicate “chapters”. Were there other examples you intended to include? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=6)