# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/101 "2015-10-31T11:57:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s funny the extents people looking to be offended will go to. Dress like Marilyn Monroe? Sexist. Dress like the pope? Anti-Catholic bigot. Dress like a stereotypical hip-hop artist? Racist. Dress like a Martian? Red planet hater. > > Unless you know someones intent and can read minds put down the pitchforks. There are bigger problems in the world to deal with than some fraternity’s party. While I generally agree with you, the example the MrDibble supplied was clearly racist. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/102 "2015-10-31T12:34:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now THAT party was in bad taste AND racist. They deserved to get the strong reprimand they received. > > But you indicate “chapters”. Were there other examples you intended to include? Sorry, yes, messed up the linking. “past” was supposed to link to the UA party and “record” was supposed to link to [this UCSD one](https://www.facebook.com/notes/deen-muhammad/ucsd-white-frat-pi-kappa-alpha-mocks-black-history-month/340967715476). And it’s not just Blacks, they target [other minorities too](http://totalfratmove.com/pi-kappa-phi-at-usc-plans-racist-rager-canceled-after-student-calls-them-out-on-it/). ---
**Author:** ![Ontifonce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ontifonce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ontifonce)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/103 "2015-10-31T12:38:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This. The assumption in this thread that this would turn into some type of disdainful black-face farce is not a valid argument against. It’s making up shit. > > I’m an old fart, but in my son’s circles, take it from me, white boys love them the hip-hop, and it is not with irony or contempt. Nevermind, Mrdibble answered better than I did. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/104 "2015-10-31T14:35:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, I agree. But it seems you agree that it is part of the culture. And, like any other Halloween portrayal of a “thing”, it is going to be a somewhat cartoonish version of reality. a caricature of the actual thing. Same for any themed party. No? THAT is the heart of this issue. Would this party be a cartoonish parody, like blackface minstrel shows or an Indian football mascot, or are these guys actually into hip-hop and black culture and legitimately enjoying it in a respectful way? At this point in history, the latter is possible. I would be skeptical about the latter choice at a frat party, but it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/105 "2015-10-31T14:40:28Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t understand your meaning here. You began by saying “that’s the problem” but it’s not clear to me what problem you’re trying to describe. No one is asking you to decide if others are busy stealing or misappropriating the words you use. So why is it a problem if you can’t really do so? I MUST decide whether someone has stolen the word when I decide whether to use it. In other words, the choice isn’t entirely mine. > [@](#): > > I think your post may be written under an assumption that the language you speak belongs to you. But it doesn’t. Is that something you were assuming? Who does it belong to then? > [@](#): > > You’re talking way above your paygrade (and mine too). You have nothing at all to do with how charitable people are about others’ motivations. Zero of any effort you expend in that direction will have any effect. What you _can_ do is choose which words you use when you speak and write. Do you see my point? I reject the idea that I have no power to influence how words are used, or how my words are understood. I don’t believe it’s below my pay grade. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/106 "2015-10-31T15:31:32Z")
Nobody’s answered the real question. Why is Pi Kappa Alpha referred to as PIKE and not PIKA? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/107 "2015-10-31T16:01:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I MUST decide whether someone has stolen the word when I decide whether to use it. In other words, the choice isn’t entirely mine. > > Who does it belong to then? The English language belongs to all speakers of English, collectively, if it belongs to anyone. There is no person who has authority over what any word of English means. > [@](#): > > I reject the idea that I have no power to influence how words are used, or how my words are understood. I don’t believe it’s below my pay grade. All I can say, I guess, is good luck with that! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/108 "2015-10-31T16:06:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You are right. It is not “necessarily” racist. It has the benefit of “plausible deniability” built in. It is the perfect tool doing B and claiming to do A. True, but A doesn’t necessarily mean B either, and that’s what I think several of us are trying to get at. If hip-hop culture involves wearing grills, gold chains, pants hanging off your ass, and a certain amount of thuggery, that’s all well and good. The problem comes in because the music happens to be predominantly black, at least in terms of the performers and intended audience. Where it gets sticky is when someone tries to do something involving A, and inadvertently invokes B, even if it’s unintentional. I mean, why shouldn’t a young white kid be able to be Lil’ Jon for Halloween? It’s NO different ultimately than a black girl wanting to dress up like Taylor Swift or Katy Perry. It’s not that the kid wants to poke fun at black culture, it’s that he likes Lil’ Jon’s music. Yet people would lose their shit in an insane way if this happened… at the boy, but not at the girl, even if it came with a blonde wig and everything. I’ll guarantee you that you’ll probably see dozens of black Elsas out and about if you look, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s apparently taboo for a whlte person to go as a black character, due to some combination of thin skin and paranoia, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/109 "2015-10-31T16:24:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The English language belongs to all speakers of English, collectively, if it belongs to anyone. Agreed. But I’m one of them. And, of course, some speakers of English can be more persuasive than others. I hope to be one of them. > [@](#): > > There is no person who has authority over what any word of English means. Glad you agree. So nobody is above anyone else’s “paygrade.” > [@](#): > > All I can say, I guess, is good luck with that! Thanks. I’m aware that it’s not easy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/110 "2015-10-31T16:49:14Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Nobody’s answered the real question. > > Why is Pi Kappa Alpha referred to as PIKE and not PIKA? They’re fratboys, not Pokemon? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/111 "2015-10-31T16:51:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > True, but A doesn’t necessarily mean B either, and that’s what I think several of us are trying to get at. > > If hip-hop culture involves wearing grills, gold chains, pants hanging off your ass, and a certain amount of thuggery, that’s all well and good. The problem comes in because the music happens to be predominantly black, at least in terms of the performers and intended audience. > > Where it gets sticky is when someone tries to do something involving A, and inadvertently invokes B, even if it’s unintentional. > > I mean, why shouldn’t a young white kid be able to be Lil’ Jon for Halloween? It’s NO different ultimately than a black girl wanting to dress up like Taylor Swift or Katy Perry. It’s not that the kid wants to poke fun at black culture, it’s that he likes Lil’ Jon’s music. Yet people would lose their shit in an insane way if this happened… at the boy, but not at the girl, even if it came with a blonde wig and everything. I’ll guarantee you that you’ll probably see dozens of black Elsas out and about if you look, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s apparently taboo for a whlte person to go as a black character, due to some combination of thin skin and paranoia, apparently. Yes, and I believe that the lines between A and B are blurring as black and white culture become less distinct. Especially among young people. I think there’s a generation gap at work too - young people who have no racist intent go out and use words or do things that older people would never do because of the racial connotations. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/112 "2015-10-31T16:59:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Glad you agree. So nobody is above anyone else’s “paygrade.” That is not implied by what I said. I said that no individual has authority over the language. This means that if any individual tries to exercise authority over the language, then that individual is acting above his paygrade. Now to another logical point: When I originally mentioned paygrade, it had nothing to do with who owns the language, rather, it had to do with who has the power (i.e. actual, physical capability) to do what. > [@](#): > > Thanks. I’m aware that it’s not easy. It’s literally impossible. Not logically impossible–you could do it with logically consistent superpowers. But in the real world, it’s not possible. Your efforts will have not a tiny effect, but _zero_ effect, on the fact that billions of speakers of English _will_ be uncharitable in their interpretation of what others have said. This means that any plan of action that begins with an assumption like “I can make a difference as to whether billions of speakers of English will interpret others uncharitably” is a bad plan of action. The better plan of action is to change the thing you _can_ change–your own language. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/113 "2015-10-31T17:03:44Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, why shouldn’t a young white kid be able to be Lil’ Jon for Halloween? It’s NO different ultimately than a black girl wanting to dress up like Taylor Swift or Katy Perry. It’s not that the kid wants to poke fun at black culture, it’s that he likes Lil’ Jon’s music. Yet people would lose their shit in an insane way if this happened… at the boy, but not at the girl, even if it came with a blonde wig and everything. I’ll guarantee you that you’ll probably see dozens of black Elsas out and about if you look, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s apparently taboo for a whlte person to go as a black character, due to some combination of thin skin and paranoia, apparently. Unless the white kid dressing as Lil Jon is wearing blackface, I don’t think anyone would find it objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/114 "2015-10-31T17:10:10Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Jew-bros at Southern **Methodist** University?? INCONCEIVABLE!! > > They may be privileged but they ain’t likely to be “Jew-bros”. The Jewish population of Dallas is about 5. At least one recent former Mayor of Dallas was Jewish. Dallas is certainly not New York, but it’s not exactly nothing but J.R.s. Amongst other things they have lots of transplanted Northerners. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/115 "2015-10-31T17:41:33Z")
Are people still trying to pretend “thug” is not just code for “black”? seriously? of course it is racist, it is blatantly and openly racist. It’s a “let’s make fun of those stupid black people and the stupid way they dress and act” party, how can anyone defend that? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/116 "2015-10-31T17:44:37Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Unless the white kid dressing as Lil Jon is wearing blackface, I don’t think anyone would find it objectionable. Seriously? You think a white kid dressed [like this](http://www.frequencynews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/liljon2.jpg), not in blackface or anything, wouldn’t cause a colossal shitstorm? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/117 "2015-10-31T17:45:38Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Are people still trying to pretend “thug” is not just code for “black”? seriously? of course it is racist, it is blatantly and openly racist. It’s a “let’s make fun of those stupid black people and the stupid way they dress and act” party, how can anyone defend that? Where I’m from thug means criminal. I haven’t received my latest copy of “Code Words for Minorities” yet though. Funny thing is an Obama mask is racist, a Hillary mask is sexist yet a Palin or Bush mask is progressive. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/118 "2015-10-31T17:53:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > THAT is the heart of this issue. Would this party be a cartoonish parody, like blackface minstrel shows or an Indian football mascot, or are these guys actually into hip-hop and black culture and legitimately enjoying it in a respectful way? At this point in history, the latter is possible. I would be skeptical about the latter choice at a frat party, but it’s possible. I don’t know if “respectful” comes into play, or should. I liken it it a Disco-themed party. People dial certain aspects of the disco craze and have fun with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ontifonce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ontifonce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ontifonce)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/119 "2015-10-31T17:58:42Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Seriously? You think a white kid dressed [like this](http://www.frequencynews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/liljon2.jpg), not in blackface or anything, wouldn’t cause a colossal shitstorm? I hope so because LIL John and Lil Wayne and many of the southern rappers cause shit storms themselves. People seem to think older black people approve of those clowns. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/120 "2015-10-31T18:00:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t know if “respectful” comes into play, or should. I liken it it a Disco-themed party. People dial certain aspects of the disco craze and have fun with it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a hip-hop themed party, no matter the group that wants to have it. It’s just how to present it and things like that that sometimes become problematic or insensitive, in my view. But it’s pretty easy to avoid these problems, I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=7)