# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/121 "2015-10-31T18:09:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Are people still trying to pretend “thug” is not just code for “black”? seriously? of course it is racist, it is blatantly and openly racist. It’s a “let’s make fun of those stupid black people and the stupid way they dress and act” party, how can anyone defend that? I’m offended by that! “Thug” is a perfectly good word with no racial implications, or at least it was until five minutes ago. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/122 "2015-10-31T18:10:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a hip-hop themed party, no matter the group that wants to have it. It’s just how to present it and things like that that sometimes become problematic or insensitive, in my view. But it’s pretty easy to avoid these problems, I think. And not going through the exercise of trying to make something that is not racist, racist-like is even easier. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/123 "2015-10-31T18:11:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m offended by that! “Thug” is a perfectly good word with no racial implications, or at least it was until five minutes ago. I’ve noticed that people tend to be behind the times on any slurs that don’t apply to their groups – black people notice when something becomes/became a racial slur against black people long before others; Jews notice when something becomes an anti-Jewish slur long before others; and similar. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/124 "2015-10-31T18:12:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And not going through the exercise of trying to make something that is not racist, racist-like is even easier. I just call 'em like I see 'em. And I know that we often see 'em differently. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/125 "2015-10-31T18:13:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That is not implied by what I said. > > I said that no individual has authority over the language. > > This means that if any individual tries to exercise authority over the language, then that individual is acting above his paygrade. But that implies that there is someone out there who IS at the right paygrade. Whatever, you clarified. > [@](#): > > It’s literally impossible. Not logically impossible–you could do it with logically consistent superpowers. But in the real world, it’s not possible. Your efforts will have not a tiny effect, but _zero_ effect, on the fact that billions of speakers of English _will_ be uncharitable in their interpretation of what others have said. This means that any plan of action that begins with an assumption like “I can make a difference as to whether billions of speakers of English will interpret others uncharitably” is a bad plan of action. I disagree. I don’t think language is equally influenced by every one of the billion of us. > [@](#): > > The better plan of action is to change the thing you _can_ change–your own language. So how does language change in the first place if everyone follows and nobody leads? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/126 "2015-10-31T18:15:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve noticed that people tend to be behind the times on any slurs that don’t apply to their groups – black people notice when something becomes/became a racial slur against black people long before others; Jews notice when something becomes an anti-Jewish slur long before others; and similar. But the groups to whom those slurs don’t apply are the ones using them, so how can that be? For instance, if thug is a slur, it means whites are using it as a slur. I guess some whites who don’t use it might not be aware though. They are the ones who get in trouble for using it, ironically, since they are the non-racists. The racists know not to say it out loud, or else they don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/127 "2015-10-31T18:17:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I just call 'em like I see 'em. Try not contorting them along the way. Just think of all the energy you’ll save and be able to post on other topics you will no doubt be wrong about. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/128 "2015-10-31T18:19:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Try not contorting them along the way. I don’t think I am. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/129 "2015-10-31T18:19:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t know if “respectful” comes into play, or should. I liken it it a Disco-themed party. People dial certain aspects of the disco craze and have fun with it. I meant respectful to mean not demeaning. Disco party is a good example. (Am I allowed to say what I mean when I use a word? Not sure any more. 🆒) ---
**Author:** ![Ontifonce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ontifonce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ontifonce)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/130 "2015-10-31T18:22:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But the groups to whom those slurs don’t apply are the ones using them, so how can that be? For instance, if thug is a slur, it means whites are using it as a slur. I guess some whites who don’t use it might not be aware though. They are the ones who get in trouble for using it, ironically, since they are the non-racists. The racists know not to say it out loud, or else they don’t care. In New Orleans, the people who broke in to the shoe stores to steal shoes( those in flooded areas) were “thugs”, those who broke in to supermarkets to steal water(those whose water and electricity were out) were “resorceful”. Almost any black person killed by the cops or protesting said murder is a thug on Fox news. They control the framing amongst their viewers and other racists to the point that the word “Thug” has evolved. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/131 "2015-10-31T18:29:00Z")
> [@Ontifonce](#): > > In New Orleans, the people who broke in to the shoe stores to steal shoes( those in flooded areas) were “thugs”, those who broke in to supermarkets to steal water(those whose water and electricity were out) were “resorceful”. > Almost any black person killed by the cops or protesting said murder is a thug on Fox news. They control the framing amongst their viewers and other racists to the point that the word “Thug” has evolved. So we should blindly follow the language that FOX news uses? FOX should decide how we talk about race? I don’t think so. And here’s the thing - when FOX says someone shot by the cops is a thug, they’re just saying they think the shooting was justified by the victim’s behavior. That’s not a racist statement - just the opposite, it means they think the cop wasn’t acting on race. I’m not saying I would agree with that assessment in any particular case, or that simply “being a thug” justifies being shot. And it could still be that someone on Fox sees a black face and thinks “he must be a thug” which is of course racist. But simply calling someone who is black a thug isn’t automatically racist. Perhaps he is one. Fox viewers, however, may have taken “thug” and run with it to use it as a new racist term, of course. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/132 "2015-10-31T18:32:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So we should blindly follow the language that FOX news uses? FOX should decide how we talk about race? I don’t think so. > > And here’s the thing - when FOX says someone shot by the cops is a thug, they’re just saying they think the shooting was justified by the victim’s behavior. That’s not a racist statement - just the opposite, it means they think the cop wasn’t acting on race. I’m not saying I would agree with that assessment in any particular case, or that simply “being a thug” justifies being shot. And it could still be that someone on Fox sees a black face and thinks “he must be a thug” which is of course racist. But simply calling someone who is black a thug isn’t automatically racist. Perhaps he is one. > > Fox viewers, however, may have taken “thug” and run with it to use it as a new racist term, of course. When “thug” is overwhelmingly applied in a negative manner to people of one race – especially a race that has been historically discriminated against with the justification that they are more violent and less intelligent – then it’s reasonable to start to suspect that the word might have something to do with these historical forms of discrimination and oppression and these forms of justification that such treatment was earned due to a claimed greater capacity or likelihood for violence and lawlessness. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/133 "2015-10-31T19:02:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When “thug” is overwhelmingly applied in a negative manner to people of one race – especially a race that has been historically discriminated against with the justification that they are more violent and less intelligent – then it’s reasonable to start to suspect that the word might have something to do with these historical forms of discrimination and oppression and these forms of justification that such treatment was earned due to a claimed greater capacity or likelihood for violence and lawlessness. Well, sure, if you hear the word thug applied mostly to blacks, you’re going to think maybe it’s a slur, but is that happening? Have people stopped calling whites “thugs?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/134 "2015-10-31T19:25:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, sure, if you hear the word thug applied mostly to blacks, you’re going to think maybe it’s a slur, but is that happening? Have people stopped calling whites “thugs?” In general, mostly yes, at least in my experience and reading. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/135 "2015-10-31T19:34:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Seriously? You think a white kid dressed [like this](http://www.frequencynews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/liljon2.jpg), not in blackface or anything, wouldn’t cause a colossal shitstorm? I don’t really think it’s all that different from a black kid wearing it. I mean, I guess considering that anything could be offensive, someone might be upset, but Lil Jon exists as a person in the world. It’s not like going as a generic black person. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/136 "2015-10-31T19:40:01Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Unless the white kid dressing as Lil Jon is wearing blackface, I don’t think anyone would find it objectionable. But Lil Jon’s face is black. The history of blackface may make it racist, but using makeup as part of a costume isn’t implicitly racist. At some point, maybe the history will fade and blackface will just be a skin color. I know, it won’t be any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/137 "2015-10-31T19:41:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In general, mostly yes, at least in my experience and reading. I’d say it’s hard for one person to observe that trend alone. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/138 "2015-10-31T19:43:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’d say it’s hard for one person to observe that trend alone. Probably so. As far as slurs against black people, I mostly take my cues from the black people among my family and friends. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/139 "2015-10-31T19:44:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably so. As far as slurs against black people, I mostly take my cues from the black people among my family and friends. But they aren’t objective observers. You can’t know whether white people have stopped calling other white people “thug” by what black people hear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/140 "2015-10-31T19:54:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But they aren’t objective observers. You can’t know whether white people have stopped calling other white people “thug” by what black people hear. As for that part, I go for my own experience as a white person, and those of my white friends and family, as well as what I read for both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=8)