# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/141 "2015-10-31T20:01:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But Lil Jon’s face is black. > > The history of blackface may make it racist, but using makeup as part of a costume isn’t implicitly racist. At some point, maybe the history will fade and blackface will just be a skin color. I know, it won’t be any time soon. Racist or not, white people darkening their skin to look black look, at best, ridiculous and utterly lacking in creativity. And if “has black skin” is the takeaway for the costume…it’s maybe not the best costume. It’s not as though every white person has the same skin tone, yet you don’t see little girls lightening their skin to play Snow White, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/142 "2015-10-31T20:05:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that implies that there is someone out there who IS at the right paygrade. Whatever, you clarified. It doesn’t imply that at all. 😕 It is consistent with the possibility that it is at no one’s paygrade. (Probably though, powerful media players do have some element of this kind of control. But, that’s not implied by what I said before.) > [@](#): > > So how does language change in the first place if everyone follows and nobody leads? You’re familiar with the theory of evolution, right? It’s something like that. But don’t mistake me for asserting that _no one_ can have any degree of meaningful power over the language. I can see how I might have given that impression. What I am saying is that _almost no one_ has meaningful power over this, and _absolutely_ no one has legitimate authority over it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/143 "2015-10-31T20:22:33Z")
Let’s keep this simple. Forget whether the party’s theme was inherently racist or whether the frat boys meant any harm. Should it have been absurdly obvious to anyone with half a brain that this party was likely to offend black people? Of course. So, SOMEONE in the frat should have said, “What the hell is wrong with you idiots???” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/144 "2015-10-31T20:35:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, just because a couple of fraternities have a hip-hop themed party and say to bring your bling and inner thug, doesn’t mean that it’s deliberately mocking anyone or being racist Using terms like “inner thug” to clearly mean “styles stereotypically or actually popular among black people” is racist. Encouraging non-black people to attend an event dressed in African-American stereotypes or tastes is racist. As noted by other posts above, given American history and white European history in general, this kind of thing _is_ mockery or disrespectful, whether or not anyone thinks that such mockery or disrespect is “deliberate.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/145 "2015-10-31T20:39:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m offended by that! “Thug” is a perfectly good word with no racial implications, or at least it was until five minutes ago. Hell, I’ve been calling Chris Christie a political “thug” for a few years now. I guess I’ve been just confusing him with Ben Carson. The black community embraced the coolness of thuggitude and surprise surprise it has come back to bite em in posterior. I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/146 "2015-10-31T20:47:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The black community embraced the coolness of thuggitude and surprise surprise it has come back to bite em in posterior. > > I don’t care. Who is this “black community”? All black people? Everyone except the “good ones”? How did they indicate they were “embracing” the “coolness of thuggitude”? Because there are some musical performers—popular among all races—who in some songs might have used lyrics that role-played violent, criminal, or anti-social behavior who might have worn certain styles? Can you quantify how many this were, or explain how you can look into the minds of individuals to deduce that listening to certain recordings or adopting certain styles of clothing are “embracing thuggitude”? Are you sure that thugs are the origin of such styles rather than simply among a larger group of people who picked them up? And what is “thuggitude”? Are you acquainted with the realities of living in America as a black person, where people might be labeled by the law enforcement community or the white majority as “thugs” based merely on appearances or based on making assumptions about their criminal records when these criminal records are tainted by widespread discrimination by the justice system against them based on their race? This idea of “thuggitude” is a trap for black people created by white people—We get to judge you based on arbitrary standards based on how we persecute the people in your community. To a significant number of people, _anything_ perceived as coming from the black community is going to be denigrated as thuggery or some other derogatory category. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/147 "2015-10-31T20:49:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When “thug” is overwhelmingly applied in a negative manner to people of one race – especially a race that has been historically discriminated against with the justification that they are more violent and less intelligent – then it’s reasonable to start to suspect that the word might have something to do with these historical forms of discrimination and oppression and these forms of justification that such treatment was earned due to a claimed greater capacity or likelihood for violence and lawlessness. What evidence do you have that thug is “overwhelmingly applied in a negative manner to people of one race”? There’s a whole world out there that is outside your personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/148 "2015-10-31T21:22:44Z")
Mhm. And so when an invitation suggests that folks dress like “thugs” you don’t expect that most of the guests imagine they’re being asked to dress up in black stereotypes? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/149 "2015-10-31T21:46:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What evidence do you have that thug is “overwhelmingly applied in a negative manner to people of one race”? There’s a whole world out there that is outside your personal experience. My opinion is based on my experience and others’ I’ve heard from. I’m not aware of any data that suggests how it’s used in either case. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/150 "2015-10-31T21:50:53Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Racist or not, white people darkening their skin to look black look, at best, ridiculous and utterly lacking in creativity. Why? It’s about as creative as most costumes. You’re dressing up as someone else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/151 "2015-10-31T21:52:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You’re familiar with the theory of evolution, right? It’s something like that. > > But don’t mistake me for asserting that _no one_ can have any degree of meaningful power over the language. I can see how I might have given that impression. What I am saying is that _almost no one_ has meaningful power over this, and _absolutely_ no one has legitimate authority over it. Okay, ALMOST no one. No reason why I can’t be one of the special ones. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/152 "2015-10-31T21:52:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Mhm. And so when an invitation suggests that folks dress like “thugs” you don’t expect that most of the guests imagine they’re being asked to dress up in black stereotypes? I don’t. And note that the flyer says “inner thug”. Donating the proceeds of the event to the Dallas Boys and Girls Club would be an unusual charity to pick for a group of alleged racists. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/153 "2015-10-31T21:54:19Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Let’s keep this simple. Forget whether the party’s theme was inherently racist or whether the frat boys meant any harm. > > Should it have been absurdly obvious to anyone with half a brain that this party was likely to offend black people? Of course. So, SOMEONE in the frat should have said, “What the hell is wrong with you idiots???” I could just as easily ask “is it possible some black people could attend this party, and enjoy it and not be offended by it?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/154 "2015-10-31T21:57:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And what is “thuggitude”? Are you acquainted with the realities of living in America as a black person, where people might be labeled by the law enforcement community or the white majority as “thugs” based merely on appearances or based on making assumptions about their criminal records when these criminal records are tainted by widespread discrimination by the justice system against them based on their race? > > This idea of “thuggitude” is a trap for black people created by white people—We get to judge you based on arbitrary standards based on how we persecute the people in your community. To a significant number of people, _anything_ perceived as coming from the black community is going to be denigrated as thuggery or some other derogatory category. If I call someone a thug, it’s because they act like a thug. Just FYI. It can apply to any race. It is not arbitrary. It does not apply to anything. Just because someone else goes around being racist doesn’t make everything I do or say racist just because they use certain words. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/155 "2015-10-31T22:01:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Using terms like “inner thug” to clearly mean “styles stereotypically or actually popular among black people” is racist. Or it means “styles stereotypically or actually popular among hiphop artists and their fans.” A subtle but important difference. This frat should have had a juggalo party instead. Mostly white fans, clown makeup instead of black makeup, mostly embracing their, well, I can’t find a better word for it - thuggery. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/156 "2015-10-31T22:23:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I could just as easily ask “is it possible some black people could attend this party, and enjoy it and not be offended by it?” What do you think? Given what you acknowledged about the racist history and associations of blackface, for example. Do you honestly believe that could happen? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/157 "2015-11-01T00:57:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What do you think? Given what you acknowledged about the racist history and associations of blackface, for example. Do you honestly believe that could happen? WTF does “blackface” have to do with this? Where does it say that any citizen has the right not to be offended by anything? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/158 "2015-11-01T01:12:30Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Racist or not, white people darkening their skin to look black look, at best, ridiculous and utterly lacking in creativity. And if “has black skin” is the takeaway for the costume…it’s maybe not the best costume. It’s not as though every white person has the same skin tone, yet you don’t see little girls lightening their skin to play Snow White, for instance. Actually lots of people lighten skin with makeup for costumes. You ever been to a costume store or a play? People also darken skin via tanning. People looking to be offended will never fail to find cause. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/159 "2015-11-01T01:12:32Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Where does it say that any citizen has the right not to be offended by anything? What kinds of rights are you talking about? An explicit, legal right? What makes you think that an explicit, legal right has anything to do with this? There are a lot of things that aren’t based in explicit, legal rights that we should still denounce, discourage, and make clear that they are socially unacceptable. That doesn’t mean people can’t still go ahead and do it, but they will then do it under the unambiguous judgment of the general public. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or it means “styles stereotypically or actually popular among hiphop artists and their fans.” > > A subtle but important difference. Subtle and important? Maybe. Maybe not. If so, maybe not in the way you imply. Hiphop is a style of music, and a pretty broad one at that. If you automatically associate hiphop styles with violent criminality, then that’s pretty important too. And it’s pretty easy to show that hiphop styles are very closely associated with segments of the black community. > [@](#): > > This frat should have had a juggalo party instead. Mostly white fans, clown makeup instead of black makeup, mostly embracing their, well, I can’t find a better word for it - thuggery. Do you really believe that the majority of Juggalos are violent criminals? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If I call someone a thug, it’s because they act like a thug. Just FYI. It can apply to any race. It is not arbitrary. It does not apply to anything. This is just head-in-the-sand stubbornness. Once you are aware that a word has certain social significance, your use of that word says something about you. You can’t just point to a particular definition and say “I only mean that one thing” when the entirety of social context shows something else. > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I don’t. :dubious: > [@](#): > > And note that the flyer says “inner thug”. I don’t know what difference this is supposed to make. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Just because someone else goes around being racist doesn’t make everything I do or say racist just because they use certain words. > [@](#): > > Donating the proceeds of the event to the Dallas Boys and Girls Club would be an unusual charity to pick for a group of alleged racists. Both these comments reflect a very pervasive kind of ignorance about racism. Racism is not a switch. It’s not just applicable to people who consciously and deliberately choose to be racists and sign on to a charter of things that are racist. Racism is something that bathes our entire society and affects us all to one extent or another as a whole, in groups, and as individuals. It doesn’t take a card-carrying racist to hold a particular racist attitude, or make a particular racist use of language, or engage in a racist act. Any one of us can and do all of these things. Our society was far more racist in the past, but it is less so now, and one reason is that we as individuals and as groups started calling out racism in whatever way it was manifested and from whomever it came. In very important ways, we have eliminated some of the most horrific manifestations of racism, but that process is far from over, and what it means that any time a racist attitude, statement, or action becomes apparent, we as a society call it out and discourage it. It has nothing to do with whether a particular person _is_ a racist or admits to being a racist or signs on to the identity of a racist. It’s about fighting _racism_. And we have to fight it within ourselves and we have to fight it when we see it around us. You don’t get to sit back and say “Well, I’m not a racist, so I can do or say whatever I want without criticism, so long as I can claim that you can’t prove that I did it because I’m a racist as a state of being.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/160 "2015-11-01T01:15:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > People looking to be offended will never fail to find cause. This itself is offensive in its dismissiveness and it helps preserve the racism that still exists in our society. There are millions of people in our society who suffer on a daily basis because of racism. This isn’t some pretend ghost that people are “being offended” about because they’re bored. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=9)