# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/161 "2015-11-01T01:15:49Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or it means “styles stereotypically or actually popular among hiphop artists and their fans.” > > A subtle but important difference. > > This frat should have had a juggalo party instead. Mostly white fans, clown makeup instead of black makeup, mostly embracing their, well, I can’t find a better word for it - thuggery. Or the frat could have the freedom to have the party they wish and those who are outraged can stay away? I would much rather hang with a “hip hop” crowd than with Juggalos. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/162 "2015-11-01T01:18:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This itself is offensive in its dismissiveness and it helps preserve the racism that still exists in our society. There are millions of people in our society who suffer on a daily basis because of racism. This isn’t some pretend ghost that people are “being offended” about because they’re bored. There is no right to be insulated from any little thing that may cause the overly sensitive to take offense. I saw a black man today on CBS using a picture of a white woman as a mask! Sexist and racist pig? Should I have been offended? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/163 "2015-11-01T01:20:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If I call someone a thug, it’s because they act like a thug. Just FYI. It can apply to any race. It is not arbitrary. It does not apply to anything. > > Just because someone else goes around being racist doesn’t make everything I do or say racist just because they use certain words. Nope it can ONLY mean you are racist since random people on the internet say so. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/164 "2015-11-01T01:41:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > There is no right to be insulated from any little thing that may cause the overly sensitive to take offense. I saw a black man today on CBS using a picture of a white woman as a mask! Sexist and racist pig? Should I have been offended? There is no right to be insulated from the repercussions of wanting to throw a racist party either. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/165 "2015-11-01T01:42:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Nope it can ONLY mean you are racist since random people on the internet say so. If it refers to a black person who is not a criminal, just talking loudly or dressed in urban fashion, them it is a racist term. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/166 "2015-11-01T01:45:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > There is no right to be insulated from any little thing that may cause the overly sensitive to take offense. I don’t think you understand what a “right” is. You have the right to engage in act that offend people. In turn, they have a perfect right to call out what they consider racist and to encourage society to condemn it and discourage it and urge society to shun you for your racism. And then you have the right to keep being racist and face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/167 "2015-11-01T01:46:06Z")
If rappers/hip hoppers find classical music offensive, should it be banned? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/168 "2015-11-01T02:03:14Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > WTF does “blackface” have to do with this? [**Freudian Slit**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18820182&postcount=113) and [**lance strongarm**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18820562&postcount=136) talked about it upthread, spinning off a comment by **bump**. (See how this works?) > [@inscrutable](#): > > Where does it say that any citizen has the right not to be offended by anything? There is no such right. There is also no right to not catch a raft of shit if you do offend a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/169 "2015-11-01T02:07:25Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > If rappers/hip hoppers find classical music offensive, should it be banned? What do you mean by “banned”? Why do they find it offensive? Is it part of a pervasive system of social bias that harms people? This is where the past matters. This is where evidence matters. This is where actual harm matters. This is where context matters. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/170 "2015-11-01T02:10:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think you understand what a “right” is. You have the right to engage in act that offend people. > > In turn, they have a perfect right to call out what they consider racist and to encourage society to condemn it and discourage it and urge society to shun you for your racism. > > And then you have the right to keep being racist and face the consequences. Thug isn’t a racist term. No amount of parroting will change that. Dressing as a type of musical genre caricature may or may not be racist. You DON’T know. It’s only your own arrogance that leads you to the inescapable conclusion that what the party is doing is racist or sexist or any other form of discrimination. CBS today around 2:00PM CST a black man culturally appropriated the likeness of a white woman. It was a blatant display of whitewoman-face and I don’t see the Al Sharpton’s of the world marching for justice. Want to know why? Not everybody is a perpetual victim looking to exploit this sort of nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/171 "2015-11-01T02:13:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If it refers to a black person who is not a criminal, just talking loudly or dressed in urban fashion, them it is a racist term. Calling people thugs who aren’t thugs is rude. I’ll grant you that. Normally, the thugs I’ve had personal dealing with, unpleasant dealings, were white. And they were very thuggish. I’ve had more problems with white thugs than black thugs and I have no problem with using the word properly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/172 "2015-11-01T02:33:43Z")
You ever notice how much more popular “thug” has gotten, in the proper, non-racist sense, since it became racist code? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/173 "2015-11-01T02:39:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Nope it can ONLY mean you are racist since random people on the internet say so. If you don’t care for or respect the opinions of “people on the internet” why bother to engage with people on the internet? > [@octopus](#): > > Thug isn’t a racist term. No amount of parroting will change that. Things change. Words change. Meanings change. Whether or not “thug” is a racist term has nothing to do what _you personally_ think about the word “thug” in your own head. If people around you think it’s racist, and you know they do, then you keep using it at your own risk. > [@](#): > > Dressing as a type of musical genre caricature may or may not be racist. You DON’T know. It’s only your own arrogance that leads you to the inescapable conclusion that what the party is doing is racist or sexist or any other form of discrimination. Again, this seems to be the product of believing that the only thing that can make you racist is knowing whether you “in your heart” are doing something for a racist motive. That’s not what solely defines racism. > [@](#): > > CBS today around 2:00PM CST a black man culturally appropriated the likeness of a white woman. Explain the history of how this kind of cultural appropriation fits in to a societal system of oppression and maybe you will persuade people that black men shouldn’t wear masks depicting white women for specific reasons. The context matters. > [@](#): > > It was a blatant display of whitewoman-face and I don’t see the Al Sharpton’s of the world marching for justice. The Al Sharptons of the world get to choose what issues they stand up for. “You didn’t do X; therefore, you are wrong about Y” is a fallacious argument. If you believe in this issue, then you go out and march for it. > [@](#): > > Want to know why? Not everybody is a perpetual victim looking to exploit this sort of nonsense. This is a statement that reflects a lack of seriousness. > [@octopus](#): > > Calling people thugs who aren’t thugs is rude. I’ll grant you that. Normally, the thugs I’ve had personal dealing with, unpleasant dealings, were white. And they were very thuggish. I’ve had more problems with white thugs than black thugs and I have no problem with using the word properly. Again, it’s not only about what goes on inside your head. There’s a whole world out there in which people are affected by things you have never experienced. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/174 "2015-11-01T10:05:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Both these comments reflect a very pervasive kind of ignorance about racism. Racism is not a switch. It’s not just applicable to people who consciously and deliberately choose to be racists and sign on to a charter of things that are racist. > > Racism is something that bathes our entire society and affects us all to one extent or another as a whole, in groups, and as individuals. It doesn’t take a card-carrying racist to hold a particular racist attitude, or make a particular racist use of language, or engage in a racist act. > > Any one of us can and do all of these things. Our society was far more racist in the past, but it is less so now, and one reason is that we as individuals and as groups started calling out racism in whatever way it was manifested and from whomever it came. > > In very important ways, we have eliminated some of the most horrific manifestations of racism, but that process is far from over, and what it means that any time a racist attitude, statement, or action becomes apparent, we as a society call it out and discourage it. > > It has nothing to do with whether a particular person _is_ a racist or admits to being a racist or signs on to the identity of a racist. It’s about fighting _racism_. And we have to fight it within ourselves and we have to fight it when we see it around us. > > You don’t get to sit back and say “Well, I’m not a racist, so I can do or say whatever I want without criticism, so long as I can claim that you can’t prove that I did it because I’m a racist as a state of being.” Just wanted to say this was a beautiful post. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/175 "2015-11-01T12:52:05Z")
I agree – great post, **Ascenray**. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/176 "2015-11-01T13:31:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If you don’t care for or respect the opinions of “people on the internet” why bother to engage with people on the internet? > > Things change. Words change. Meanings change. Whether or not “thug” is a racist term has nothing to do what _you personally_ think about the word “thug” in your own head. If people around you think it’s racist, and you know they do, then you keep using it at your own risk. > > Again, this seems to be the product of believing that the only thing that can make you racist is knowing whether you “in your heart” are doing something for a racist motive. That’s not what solely defines racism. > > Explain the history of how this kind of cultural appropriation fits in to a societal system of oppression and maybe you will persuade people that black men shouldn’t wear masks depicting white women for specific reasons. The context matters. > > The Al Sharptons of the world get to choose what issues they stand up for. “You didn’t do X; therefore, you are wrong about Y” is a fallacious argument. If you believe in this issue, then you go out and march for it. > > This is a statement that reflects a lack of seriousness. > > Again, it’s not only about what goes on inside your head. There’s a whole world out there in which people are affected by things you have never experienced. At my own risk? Risk of what and from whom? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/177 "2015-11-01T14:05:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > At my own risk? Risk of what and from whom? Of being seen by the people around you as an insensitive prick or a racist asshole. I thought that was pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/178 "2015-11-01T14:28:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Of being seen by the people around you as an insensitive prick or a racist asshole. > > I thought that was pretty obvious. I guess when President Obama referred to the rioters in Baltimore as “thugs” he was being a racist asshole and insensitive prick? Since it’s pretty obvious and all. But for some reason I doubt you care about being “perceived” as intellectually dishonest and inconsistent with your faux outrage. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/179 "2015-11-01T14:29:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I guess when President Obama referred to the rioters in Baltimore as “thugs” he was being a racist asshole and insensitive prick? If he said this, then “yes” (in a relatively minor way). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/180 "2015-11-01T14:30:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Mhm. And so when an invitation suggests that folks dress like “thugs” you don’t expect that most of the guests imagine they’re being asked to dress up in black stereotypes? What makes you think that? I’m sure some will come dressed like [this](http://www.marklawrencedesign.com/thug/), others like [this](http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.10/mainline/en_US/Thug.html), still others like [this](http://rarelyknown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1442319201_be92593998.jpg). Why on earth would you expect them to show up dressed in black stereotypes? It’s telling that earlier here and in ATMB someone described thug stereotypes as including heavy gold jewelry (like that famous thug [Parvathy Omanakuttan](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xB9-bOdWoI0/UGRXaqfS5zI/AAAAAAAAG7o/Gql9a2ViydE/s1600/parvathy+omanakuttan.png)), disrespect for police (like [these thugs in Vichy France](http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/227677-1/1547086947_7ad783cdaf)), and disrespect for women (sometimes even for [binders full of them, like this thug](http://crooksandliars.com/files/primary_image/15/01/mitt_tout2.jpg)). Somehow all these traits come together magically to make black hip-hop artists synonymous with “thugs.” Funny how that works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=10)