Is this an anti-semetic cartoon or not?

Great Debates
101

Non-religious person here. And I found it in bad taste, at least in my comic section.

When my local paper(Akron Beacon Journal, Knight-Ridder paper) put Doonesbury on the editorial page, I understood. But B.C. has deteriorated(as other posters have said) to the point where a specific religion has taken over the strip.

I plan on writing to my local paper tomorrow and suggesting that it be placed on the editorial page. I don’t want it surpressed, just placed where one would expect to find a strip that is heavyhandedly promoting an agenda.

Today’s strip, like so many of Hart’s efforts over the last few years, just wasn’t a comic.

102

Urm…actually, I think you may have misread my post: I’m Jewish and didn’t find it “offensive”. I did find it tacky and inappropriate. You’re Christian and did. The way Ben phrased it, we can’t both raise our hands and be on the same side! :wink:

Fenris

103

The problem here is not Johnny Hart.

The fundamental problem is the things that Christians and Jews believe, but are either too polite or too afraid to say out loud. Bottom line is this: even Jews and Christians of good will, people who WANT to get along, who WANT to find common ground, face a huge dilemma.

Even if Jewish and Christian friends never discuss religion, even if they go out of their way to avoid mention of religion, the fact remains: by their very existence, Jews are all but screaming “Jesus was NOT the messiah, and you dumb schmucks are wasting your time worshipping a dead Jewish carpenter.” And by their very existence, Christians might as well be screaming “The Son of God came, offering eternal life to those who’d follow him, and you poor saps have missed the boat.”

Can you see that, even for people of good will, there is ABSOLUTELY NO NICE WAY TO SAY THESE THINGS???

Most Jews are far too polite to say explicitly that the fundamental tenets of Christianity are a crock… but OBVIOUSLY that’s what they believe! And most modern American Christians are far too nice to come out and tell Jewish friends that their covenant with God has been superceded… but that’s EXACTLY what most Christian Churches teach.

Now, if/when a Jewish scholar (like, say, Hyam Maccoby) writes a book attempting to refute the divinity and Resurrection of Jesus," is he “anti-Christian”? Of COURSE, he’s anti-Christian. But is he a bigot? No! He’s a man with beliefs that run contrary to mine on an important point (the fact that his beliefs outrage and offend me is irrelevant). There’s a HUGE difference between a bigot who hates blacks and a non-Christian who attacks my Church’s doctrines.

And when Johnny Hart (or ANY Christian) proclaims that Judaism was a mere prelude for Christianity, is he “anti-semitic”? Not in the Himmler-Goebbels sense, no. Johnny Hart NEVER advocates violence or hostility against Jews.
He simply has a view of Judaism that runs contrary to that of most Jews (and the fact that his view outrages most Jews is, again, irrelevant).

Fact is, NONE of us (Christian or Jew, Republican or Democrat, Yook or Zook) has a right never to see or hear things that attempt to undermine our beliefs. Look, I like Justice Clarence Thomas… but I see a HUGE difference between people who call him a nigger and people who call him a fascist. The former are stupid bigots, beneath contempt, who should be condemned by all decent people. The latter are just expressing a very strong opinion.

People who attack our cherished beliefs make us angry. That’s understandable. But that doesn’t necessarily make them bigots.

The charge of “anti-semitism” is a serious one, and ought to be used carefully. Saying “Johnny Hart hates Jews” is a lot different from saying he hates the Red Sox. The clear implication when you call ANYONE “anti-semitic,” is that “This guy would have been cheering as they sent Jews off to Auschwitz.” THAT kind of charge requires more evidence than I’ve seen to date.

104

Whoops, I did misread your post, but I think we’re still both raising our hands to point out that Ben’s generalizations don’t work! Maybe later, we could go beat a snake with a big stick together. :wink:

105

[hijack]
People, I apologize for hijacking this thread once more; I just have to respond one more time to Ben’s words, and then leave you to finish an argument I lost interest in a long time ago.

Ben:

  1. You compared my attitude to an old-time Southern racist. I disagree - a true parallel would be the NAACP, which arranges scholarships and such for African-Americans. They’re an organization which focuses on looking after their own, and they’re as racist as I am.

  2. You made much use of the quote “I don’t trust you Gentile bastards”, which, again, I REGRET SAYING. However, you seem to misunderstand what I meant by it. Instead of talking about murder, or rape (a subject you seem oddly obsessed with), the full meaning of this sentence - easily understandable within its context - is “I don’t trust you to protect me”.

No, not a very polite assertation, but one backed by ample historical precident. You know the line about learning from history? Well, history has been repeated one time too many. Your country may be based on the motto “all men are created equal” - it’s a very fine and noble motto. My country’s motto (and my own), however, is “only Jews can protect Jews”. You have your philosophy, I have mine.

Hope that sets things straight.

[/hijack]

106

astorian,

Speaking as a Jew, I must disagree with your statement above. Clearly there is a difference between disagreeing with a general philosophy and advocating violence against the opposing side, but hating a member of a religion on the basis of that person’s religion is no more tolerable than hating blacks because they’re blacks, gays because they’re gay, and women because they’re women.
If a christian preaches to me, if he or she witnesses, then yes, I get upset. Rightly so, I believe. But I do NOT believe that Christians in and of themselves are an affront to my Judaism. I do NOT believe that their mere existence is flaunting in my face that they’ve gone beyond Judaism any more than they would see me dancing down the street singing “la la la la, I’m one of the chosen ones!”
They believe something different than I do. That doesn’t make them alien to me. People are more than their religion.
I think one of the biggest problems in politics is that Democrats and Republicans don’t trust each other for no other reason than they don’t belong to the same party. Their logic is illogical and so is yours astorian.

107

Perhaps I phrased myself poorly, but I was not making generalizations. I was collecting data.

-Ben

108

Actually, it looks like I really was making a generalization. Whups! Anyway, the generalization is clearly wrong.

Anyway, here’s the link to my Pit thread on Alessan, to keep this thread from being hijacked:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=67651

Not that anyone in their right mind would care, at this point, but I find it hard to resist setting the record straight.

-Ben

109

I found it to be weird.

Until I read this thread, I missed the menorah connection because all the menorahs I’ve seen have 9 candles and the cartoon only had 7 - that and I don’t associate menorahs with Passover. So, I thought it was supposed to be some kind of comicstrip Good Friday/Easter service all in one.

Not funny and a reminder of why I don’t usually read the strip, but had it not been for the thread, I would have missed his point about Judaism altogether.

110
      • Yep. -What’s the big f*cking deal, anyway? Are some people so idle that all they have to do to pass the time is bitch about a lousy comic strip? How many days out of a year does J. Hart get topical, anyway? Christmas and Easter? OOOHH!!! TWO DAYS!!! THAT’S AN OUTRAGE!!! ~~~ I wouldn’t have heard about it at all, had the JDL not gotten their panties in a bind. I asked where it was in GQ because I couldn’t find it anywhere online, and someone directed me to where it was available on the JDL website! -What’s wrong with this picture? ! There are much worse things going on in the world; being so concerned about something so minor seems an empty-headed way to go about making it a better place to live. - MC
111

I’m with MC…Im not a big fan of seeing religion so blatantly displayed in something as light-hearted as the Sunday comics, but it DOESN’T happen that often, and getting rid of the strip altogether is a bit extreme.

I thought we were getting away from every little thing offending us if we happen to disagree with it. I’m also with whoever said we need to get “a thicker skin”. Dont we have more important things to worry about?

112

Actually, watching hardcore Christians twist through that can be pretty funny.

“Weeeeelllll, His parents were Jewish and He might have been RAISED Jewish, but since He represents the New Covenant…”

113

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by amarinth *
**

The menorah in the Temple in Jerusalem had 7 branches. The only reason ours today have 9 is that there are 8 days of Channukah (with one candle for the shamash. If the oil in the miracle of Channukah had lasted for 10 days, then we’d have an 11 branch menorah.

Zev Steinhardt

114

Wow. leave a thread over a holiday weekend, and it grows like a weed!

A few points to respond to, my apologies if these quotes are a page or two behind…

SuaSponte:

You’re correct that “Messiah” literally means “annointed one”, but since a Jewish King is legally designated through anointment, the term has come to refer to the Jewish King who is expected to rise at some point in the future. So it would not be entirely inaccurate to say that “Messiah” denotes “King of the Jews.”

aynrandlover:

No.

rjung:

I’m a right-winger who loves to read Doonesbury, but I have to take issue with this - while Clinton and Gore have been occasionally bashed during their administration, Trudeau (like most of the media) has made a point of turning the spotlight on Congress, Ken Starr and other anti-Clinton folks. Tip O’Neill and Tom Foley never got charicatured in Doonesbury. Newt Gingrich did. During Iran-Contra, the special prosecutor (Walsh?) was depicted as someone who was merely doing his job. During the Clinton scandals, Starr was depicted as an out-of-control McCarthyite. I have yet to see a single issue on which Trudeau has ever given even a nod, much less deserved credit, to those on the right side of the aisle.

zwaldd:

I believe this was addressed on the first page. The seven-lamp menorah was used in the actual Holy Temple, and a seven-branch menorah of some sort (usually electric) can usually be seen in an Orthodox synagogue, near or on the bimah (the platform where the cantor stands). In fact, the seal of the state of ISrael contains the seven-branched Menorah.

The nine-candle Menorah is unique to the holiday of Hanukkah, and is not used symbolically in Judaism for anything not directly related to the holiday.

Chaim Mattis Keller

115

Actually, I found Monday’s BC to be even more offensive than Sunday’s, from a ‘fighting ignorance’ POV.

Just in case the overseas editions are on a different schedule than the US ones, this strip had the ant-child coming home from school crying, saying that he was expelled for “suggesting using a praying mantis as the new school mascot.” :rolleyes:

If Hart went off on a religious kick only twice a year, as MC said, then no, I wouldn’t care. But he does this kind of thing on a regular basis. Ship him off to the editorial pages with Mallard and Zonker, I say.

–sublight.

116

Heck, IMO 98% of Hart’s B.C. comics are either unfunny or “promoting ignorance” anyway.

Speaking as an atheist, I wonder how MC would feel if other cartoonists started incorporating other, non-“mainstream” religious messages into their strips. I’d like to see some equal-time promotion of Buddhism or Zoroastrianism or Islam, if only so I can enjoy watching folks get their assumptions challenged. :smiley:

(Of course, what would probably happen is that a bunch of close-minded fundamentalists in Kansas will complain about “heathen messages” in the funny pages, probably from Hart’s biggest fans…)

117

Johnny Hart gave an interview with the Washington Post two Easters ago, in which he described his initial conversion experiences (I think in the late 60s), and his later moves to radical literalism. Unfortunately, the Post’s archive service is down so I can’t link (I’m not sure the Post would permit it anyway).

The following link discusses the contract between Hart and the late, sainted Charles Schultz, citing Schultz’s “deft touch, both in drawing technique (he was a master of making seemingly simple lines convey nuance) and narrative.”

Hart just doesn’t have the talent to pull off what he wants to do.

There was a time when Hart’s strip was incredibly funny and innovative - but that was the late 50s, early 60s. I’ve read collections from that period and they really are a riot.

Thanks god Gary Larson and Bill Watterson called it quits when they did.

[rant] AND IT’S SEMITIC! TWO Is! GO TO THE BLACKBOARD AND WRITE A THOUSAND TIMES, “I WILL NOT MISSPELL MY THREAD HEADINGS!”[/rant]

118

[hijack]
For the curious, here’s why.
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119

[hijack 2]
Agnes? They replaced Liberty Meadows with AGNES???

I don’t know LM from a hole in the ground, but a quick glance at the web site tells me it’s better-looking and better-drawn than Agnes, hands down. Having been subjected to Agnes for over six months already, I can tell you it’s nothing but the crudely-drawn insignificant adventures of a bunch of white trailer-trash characters (literally).

Agnes (along with Close To Home) is proof positive in my mind that the syndicates don’t care if a comic strip looks good or is even entertaining – if it takes up space on the page and doesn’t offend too many people, that’s good enough.

I mean, if it was The Boondocks I can understand, but…
[/hijack 2]

120

IMHO, it was this:

The bird and the turtle are out on a stroll on a clear night. Hanging in the sky is the crescent Moon. The turtle passes underneath the Moon and the bird, riding on the turtle’s back, hooks his beak on the Moon and is left hanging there. The bird looks at the reader and says, “It’s nice to know that absurdity hasn’t gone from the comics.”

Since then, Hart has been more interested in “witnessing” than in being funny. One strip said freedom left this country the year Roe vs. Wade was upheld by the Supreme Court. As for frequently injecting religion in lieu of humor into his strips, read the one from April 8.