# Is this announcement some "Freeman of the Land" or "Sovereign Citizen" thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838 "2021-06-22T12:30:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/21 "2021-06-23T00:56:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I hereby declare that I am the God referred to in their declaration. No you’ve got to publish it in the Notices section of a major newspaper for it to work. Also, they can then declare in the Notices section of a major newspaper that they are free of you. After that, it’s dueling Notices, all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/22 "2021-06-23T01:10:28Z")
You know, things like this always make me feel a little better, knowing it isn’t just Americans who have to deal with nutjobs. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/23 "2021-06-23T01:45:23Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > You know, things like this always make me feel a little better, knowing it isn’t just Americans who have to deal with nutjobs.   These sov cits exist, in several varieties, everywhere. What’s interesting is that a lot of them are in the habit of citing the United States Commercial Code (and sometimes the United States Constitution or other U. S. founding documents) as their authorities. The legal analysis written by Justice Rooke in the Meads v Meads case (linked by **Smapti** at post #3 above), which is cited just about every time this subject comes up, is well worth a read (or at least a skim, being 150+ pages long)! Here it is again: [**Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571** Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta, 18 Sept 2012](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html) Justice Rooke, having gotten sick and fed up with these nutcases, decided to do a full deep dive into the subject, and ended up writing this monumental magnus opus of a historical and legal analysis, with a focus on all the absurd arguments they tend to make, and how judges can best respond to them. He notes in passing that Canadian courts can’t very well make judgements based on American law anyway. I’ve read that this judgement has gotten international attention in legal circles, and that judges and lawyers around the world have studied it for guidance in how to deal with these sov cit nutcases. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/24 "2021-06-23T01:54:08Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > These sov cits exist, in several varieties, everywhere. What’s interesting is that a lot of them are in the habit of **citing the United States Commercial Code** (and sometimes the United States Constitution or other U. S. founding documents) as their authorities. - What’s really bizarre is when they do this in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/25 "2021-06-23T01:58:23Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What’s really bizarre is when they do this in other countries.   That’s part of the point! Sov cits and “FOTL” nutcases, worldwide, cite U. S. law, most specifically the U. S. Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) as their authority. Justice Rooke, writing for a Canadian court, points this out, but it doesn’t matter anyway because their legal cases are nonsense anywhere, even in the U.S. I’ve seen mentions that courts in Australia, New Zealand, and Germany have all had to deal with their home-grown FOTL types doing this. And the Meads v Meads decision, though based specifically on Canadian law, is fully relevant everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/26 "2021-06-23T01:59:03Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Justice Rooke, having gotten sick and fed up with these nutcases, decided to do a full deep dive into the subject, and ended up writing this monumental magnus opus of a historical and legal analysis, with a focus on all the absurd arguments they tend to make, and how judges can best respond to them. He notes in passing that Canadian courts can’t very well make judgements based on American law anyway. I was on a panel on sov-cits with Justice Rooke once. He’s a very smart guy. However, I’m sure he never thought, when he was appointed to the Queen’s Bench, that his contribution to world-wide jurisprudence was going to be a scholarly study of legal nutcases. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/27 "2021-06-23T02:00:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > However, I’m sure he never thought, when he was appointed to the Queen’s Bench, that his contribution to world-wide jurisprudence was going to a scholarly study of legal nutcases. Someone had to do it! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/28 "2021-06-23T02:20:43Z")
And indeed it is not uncommon for Australian nutcases, and Trump supporters, to cite the US constitution and Bill of Rights in discussions about an Australian situation. They just read stuff on the interwebs about what The Law says, and don’t stop to think that they are reading a site from another country. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/29 "2021-06-23T02:53:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Someone had to do it! Agreed. I hope the judge is proud of his contribution. He should be. He did worldwide (or a good part of it anyway) jurisprudence a service here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/30 "2021-06-24T03:09:41Z")
I’m confused about giving “trade names” to children. Would they be known as (for example) Emma™, Ethan™ and Benjamin™ or would that have to wait until they’re emancipated at 18? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/31 "2021-06-24T03:15:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m confused about the “trade names” given to these children. It’s a common belief among FOTL whackadoodles that their legal name refers to a corporation that exists independently of their own self, and that by asserting that they are distinct from this corporation, they can offload their tax and other financial obligations onto the corporation which can pay it off by tapping into some mysterious source of money the corporate self has access to because magic. > **[Strawman theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_theory)** > > The strawman theory (also called the strawman illusion) is a pseudolegal conspiracy theory originating in the redemption/A4V movement and prevalent in antigovernment and tax protester movements such as sovereign citizens and freemen on the land. The theory holds that an individual has two personas, one of flesh and blood and the other a separate legal personality (i.e., the "strawman") and that one's legal responsibilities belong to the strawman rather than the physical individual. > Pseudolaw adv... > **[Redemption movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_movement)** > > The redemption movement is an element of the pseudolaw movement, mainly active in the United States and Canada, that promotes fraudulent debt payment schemes. Redemption promoters allege that a secret fund is created for every citizen at birth and that a procedure exists to "redeem" or reclaim this fund to pay bills. Common redemption schemes include acceptance for value (A4V), Treasury Direct Accounts (TDA) and secured party creditor "kits," collections of pseudolegal tactics sold to particip Al... ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/32 "2021-06-24T03:35:03Z")
I don’t know about where you are but around here a trade name is not the same as a trademark, which is what requires the TM superscript. But given that we are in away-with-the-fairies land anyway, nothing would surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/33 "2021-06-24T04:45:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s a common belief among FOTL whackadoodles that their legal name refers to a corporation that exists independently of their own self, and that by asserting that they are distinct from this corporation, they can offload their tax and other financial obligations onto the corporation which can pay it off by tapping into some mysterious source of money the corporate self has access to because magic. Has anyone ever tried to turn that around on a sovereign citizen; can I get one of them to paint my house, and when he’s done I tell him to submit the bill to my corporate self? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/34 "2021-06-24T06:02:28Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Has anyone ever tried to turn that around on a sovereign citizen; can I get one of them to paint my house, and when he’s done I tell him to submit the bill to my corporate self? I believe they usually cite the “No Backsies” clause of Magna Carta as a defense against that one. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/35 "2021-06-24T06:49:28Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And indeed it is not uncommon for Australian nutcases, and Trump supporters, to cite the US constitution and Bill of Rights in discussions about an Australian situation. They just read stuff on the interwebs about what The Law says, and don’t stop to think that they are reading a site from another country. Among some, it goes deeper. I cannot speak for Australia, but some FOTLs here in Canada believe that Canada is a private corporation wholly-owned by the United States of America, and so America’s UCC and Constitution are the law of the land in Canada. Of course, they’re not; Canada being completely independent of anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/36 "2021-06-24T07:48:31Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Of course, they’re not; Canada being completely independent of anybody. Well that’s just like, your opinion, man. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/37 "2021-06-24T08:29:40Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Of course, they’re not; Canada being completely independent of anybody. Well, except for the Queen, who may or may not be a reptilian, but definitely understands and stands under Chapter 39 of Magna Carta irregardless. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/38 "2021-06-24T11:27:48Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I cannot speak for Australia, but some FOTLs here in Canada believe that Canada is a private corporation wholly-owned by the United States of America, and so America’s UCC and Constitution are the law of the land in Canada. An alternative version is that with the passage of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, the corporation sole of the United Kingdom abandoned the vessel Canada, which is therefore open to being claimed under the admiralty law of salvage. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/39 "2021-06-24T12:18:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > they can offload their tax and other financial obligations onto the corporation which can pay it off by tapping into some mysterious source of money the corporate self has access to because magic. This is the part that doesn’t make sense. Let’s grant for a moment the preposterous idea that you are distinct from You [TM] the corporate entity. Great. If you want to live in society though - for example, if you want others to respect your property rights - then guess what? You need your straw man corporation to remain in good standing, so you can use it to interact with the rest of the country. In fact, improving the standing of your corporation is extremely important, and if you neglect it, you’re fucked, because it’s not like you can dump You [TM] who is 500,000 in debt and get a fresh You2 [TM] to start over with. So what good is it neglecting your corporation? It’s like letting your car go because “it’s just a vehicle, not my actual legs!” But then being upset that you can’t go drive anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838/40 "2021-06-24T12:21:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is the part that doesn’t make sense. That’s where you went wrong - trying to apply sense to FOTL arguments is like trying to dress a manatee in black tie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-announcement-some-freeman-of-the-land-or-sovereign-citizen-thing/944838.md?page=3)