# Is this another Waco in the making? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868 "2005-06-04T12:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/21 "2005-06-04T20:48:34Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Jeffs didn’t author this particular brand of hate. Joseph Smith did back in the 19th century. > > If you guys are interested in this cult, check out Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. It’s fascinating (and a wee bit scary.) I read it last summer, and it is very good. Not as good, IMO, as his book about Everest, but a fascinating read nonetheless. I highly recommend it-- I was dumbfounded that something this extensive existed in this day and age, pretty much right out in the open. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/22 "2005-06-04T22:14:03Z")
ETF- Like I said in my reply to Vivalostwages, it will take some HUGE error on the part of the cult leaders, one that offends the whole of the following-or at least some large part of the population-so that their faith is no longer strong enough to keep them from speaking about the details of the cult. Unfortunately, people like Jeffs, who are masters of manipulation, hardly ever make thise kinds of fatal mistakes. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/23 "2005-06-04T22:27:53Z")
> [@](#): > > When the Lord failed to appear, the prophet pronounced his flock unworthy and urged them to pray harder. Sound like _Rapa Nui_. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/24 "2005-06-04T22:35:05Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > ETF- Like I said in my reply to Vivalostwages, it will take some HUGE error on the part of the cult leaders, one that offends the whole of the following-or at least some large part of the population-so that their faith is no longer strong enough to keep them from speaking about the details of the cult. Unfortunately, people like Jeffs, who are masters of manipulation, hardly ever make thise kinds of fatal mistakes. > > Sam Given the restrictions and inconsistencies that the followers have accepted so far, what kind of mistake could Jeffs make? He has convinced his followers that he has a direct line to God. How could he ever be wrong? Do you know any examples of cults falling apart due to such a “fatal mistake”? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/25 "2005-06-05T04:02:58Z")
I didn’t bother to read the link, but if what you are asking, “Is this another Waco in the making?” means “Will this be another propaganda effort of the ATF that results in an ambush, massacre, stand-off and subsequent murder of (albiet nutty, but otherwise) law-abiding United States and foriegn national citizens”? I hope not. If the nut in question is home, try knocking on the door with a warrent instead of assulting the “compound” with unreasonable force with a para-militaristic outfit. Gee, I guess I should go read the link now…:rolleyes: (I’m such an ass) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/26 "2005-06-05T05:09:48Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Why are idiots like this Jeffs allowed to do what he does? Obviously, gov’t doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him. Now, what would you do? Would you detain him indefinitely without a civil trial or would you declare war on his cult, give him PoW status and detain him until the end of hostilities? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/27 "2005-06-05T05:25:30Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Obviously, gov’t doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him. > > Now, what would you do? Would you detain him indefinitely without a civil trial or would you declare war on his cult, give him PoW status and detain him until the end of hostilities? I thought bringing arguments from other threads into unrelated ones was frowned upon… ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/28 "2005-06-05T05:26:22Z")
The Utah Attorney General said there was nothing he could do, no action he could take, unless someone from the group came forward to make a criminal complaint about what goes on/what has been done to them. Sounds to me like the people in these groups are too terrified of what will happen to them (shunned, unable to see their families again, think they’ll burn in hell) to say anything. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/29 "2005-06-05T07:08:38Z")
> [@Red Stilettos](#): > > Given the restrictions and inconsistencies that the followers have accepted so far, what kind of mistake could Jeffs make? He has convinced his followers that he has a direct line to God. How could he ever be wrong? > > Do you know any examples of cults falling apart due to such a “fatal mistake”? Maybe this is a woosh on me, but that’s my point exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/30 "2005-06-05T07:57:14Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > More like another Jonestown. So one should invest in [Jel Sert](http://www.jelsert.com/products/flavoraid.htm) and prepare to short sell [Kraft foods](http://www.kraftfoods.com/koolaid/), then? ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/31 "2005-06-05T08:08:22Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Obviously, gov’t doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him. > > Now, what would you do? Personally? I would detain him in Guantanamo Bay and piss on his Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/32 "2005-06-05T09:07:09Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Personally? I would detain him in Guantanamo Bay and piss on his Bible. [nitpick] Book of Mormon [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/33 "2005-06-05T12:21:02Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Obviously, gov’t doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him. > > Now, what would you do? Would you detain him indefinitely without a civil trial or would you declare war on his cult, give him PoW status and detain him until the end of hostilities? Yes, because that’s EXACTLY what was said. :rolleyes: Seriously? I would say start investigating, and then, if there’s enough evidence, arrest him for fraud, child abuse, tax evasion, whatever. Get DCF in there to investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/34 "2005-06-05T12:43:28Z")
I have read the entire article linked in the OP and this question demands to be asked. What manner of thing is religion that such horror falls under its aegis? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/35 "2005-06-05T14:39:00Z")
This guy needs to be seriously investigated. Just saying that “there was nothing he could do, no action he could take, unless someone from the group came forward to make a criminal complaint about what goes on/what has been done to them” is simply ignoring the problem. At the least, the state and federal guys could start with the bank shenanigans and simply Follow The Money. They could start looking at possible welfare fraud. They could talk to Holmes, they man whose family and home were “reassigned”. They could send in Child Welfare, to examine for signs of abuse. It sounds like they just don’t want to do anything that might resemble Work. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/36 "2005-06-05T14:46:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I have read the entire article linked in the OP and this question demands to be asked. What manner of thing is religion that such horror falls under its aegis? It’s an incredibly broad thing, that encompasses an absolutely bewildering variety of beliefs, from the very good to the very evil. And there’s nothing particularly unique about religion in this regard, unless you define religion so broadly that it encompasses any set of beliefs that can inspire fanatical devotion. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/37 "2005-06-05T15:11:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I have read the entire article linked in the OP and this question demands to be asked. What manner of thing is religion that such horror falls under its aegis? You can say the same thing about any human activity. Politics encompasses everything from those nice Social Democrats of Scandinavia to the Republicans and Democrats here, through to Castro, Ghaddafi, and Kim Jong-Il. So what manner of thing is political activity that such horrors as exist in North Korea falls under its aegis? A human activity, same as religion. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/38 "2005-06-05T15:52:59Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [nitpick] Book of Mormon [/nitpick] Good point. Bi·ble Audio pronunciation of “bible” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bbl) n. 1. \*\* 4. A book or collection of writings constituting the sacred text of a religion.[/]b I’m going with this definition then. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/39 "2005-06-05T16:48:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I thought bringing arguments from other threads into unrelated ones was frowned upon… Very clever. That way you can criticize US gov’t for using extrajudicial approach against religious fanatics abroad, in one thread. At the same time you can criticize US gov’t for not using extrajudicial approach against religious fanatics in US, in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/40 "2005-06-05T17:25:31Z")
You know something? This one’s in the Pit, so I get to do what I’ve wanted to do since you (so unfortunately) started posting again. Fuck you, **New Iskander**. Fuck you sideways. You’re impervious to facts, impervious to any shame that we should be feeling as a nation for what we’ve done in the name of security since 9/11, impervious to any kind of feelings other than self-righteous offendedness, and impervious to intelligence of any kind. Fuck you and all your sanctimonious hypocritical brethren. I’m tired of dealing with that brick wall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868.md?page=3)