# Is this another Waco in the making? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868 "2005-06-04T12:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/61 "2005-06-06T14:57:54Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > One of the definition of prejudice in Merriam-Webster’s is “an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.” Bigotry has been defined often as imparting characteristics of an individual to a much larger group. > > Now, wasn’t that what you did in your little statement here? Actuall, no. It wasn’t a statement at all. I asked a question. I wondered what manner of thing is religion that such atrocities can be committed _under it’s protection._ If this seems hostile and irrational to you perhaps you would be better served by elaborating why, rather than throwing out bald accusations of bigotry. It is true that one individual does not define the group to which it belongs. It is also true that some characteristics must be shared in order to be included in the group. Further, in many groups, acceptance is necessary for continued inclusion. If you took this as a pot shot at religion you misunderstood me. It was a legitimate question. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/62 "2005-06-06T15:04:28Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > If they have automatic rifles, they they are committing a federal crime. They’re probably semiautos. Most folks say “auto” when it’s semi. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/63 "2005-06-06T15:09:03Z")
Actually, you have unsubstantiated rumor of the existence of 150 “assault weapons” that were moved into their current Zion city in Arizona 30 fucking years ago. There isn’t even the _hint_ of evidence to justify any type of warrant there. And, Moto-methinks you’re being a touch on the touchy side with this “nail-me-to-the-cross-everyone-is-a-bigot” act. Contra asked a good question, and one that needs to be answered-even though it ties our hands and there doesn’t exist a very good answer to the question. So let me restate the question that I and others have hinted at or asked in the last couple of days-where does the protection of religious freedom end, and the protection of members against controlling cult leaders who are engaging in(what appears to be) all manner of illegality begin? Sam ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/64 "2005-06-06T15:10:07Z")
Shit. My first paragraph is in response to Johnny L.A… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/65 "2005-06-06T15:12:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I certainly hope that federal agents learned good lessons from Waco and will handle this situation more successfully. > > I also hope that those who make such a fetish out of civilian rights, will realize that gov’t might have no choice but to preemptively abridge civil rights of certain people under special circumstances. Oh no you did NOT just say that. You can’t really mean it, unless you support a police state. “The more prohibitions there are, the poorer the people will be. The more laws are promulgated, the more thieves and bandits there will be.” – Lao-tzu, The Tao Te Ching “An oppressive government is much worse than a man-eating tiger.” – Kong Fu-Dzuh (“Confucious”) “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” – Tacitus, Roman senator and historian (A.D. c.56-c.115) … whenever the Legislators endeavour to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience … [Power then] devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty, and, by the Establishment of a new Legislative (such as they shall think fit) provide for their own Safety and Security, which is the end for which they are in Society. – John Locke ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/66 "2005-06-06T15:19:55Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Actually, you have unsubstantiated rumor of the existence of 150 “assault weapons” that were moved into their current Zion city in Arizona 30 fucking years ago. There isn’t even the _hint_ of evidence to justify any type of warrant there. > > And, Moto-methinks you’re being a touch on the touchy side with this “nail-me-to-the-cross-everyone-is-a-bigot” act. Contra asked a good question, and one that needs to be answered-even though it ties our hands and there doesn’t exist a very good answer to the question. > > So let me restate the question that I and others have hinted at or asked in the last couple of days-where does the protection of religious freedom end, and the protection of members against controlling cult leaders who are engaging in(what appears to be) all manner of illegality begin? > > Sam Sure, and I offered an opinion there some time ago. Religious belief does not insulate a believer if he is guilty of the crimes I listed, and those should be provable with some effort. Heck, this whole mess could qualify as a corrupt organization prosecutable under federal RICO statutes, from what I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/67 "2005-06-06T15:21:43Z")
What I don’t understand, and what I think we need to look at more, is why people still believe this shit. People need to be taught to think critically, but somehow we’re not getting that message across in the States. They need to be skeptical, cynical of big promises, and wary. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/68 "2005-06-06T15:38:38Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Actually, you have unsubstantiated rumor of the existence of 150 “assault weapons” that were moved into their current Zion city in Arizona 30 fucking years ago. There isn’t even the _hint_ of evidence to justify any type of warrant there. Granted. But I said **IF** they have illegal weapons, and **IF** there is evidence that they have them, then there is basis for a search warrant. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They’re probably semiautos. Most folks say “auto” when it’s semi. :rolleyes: Question about Waco: Wasn’t the basis of the warrant that the Branch Dividians had converted legal semi-automatic rifles into illegal automatic rifles? I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/69 "2005-06-06T15:45:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What I don’t understand, and what I think we need to look at more, is why people still believe this shit. > > People need to be taught to think critically, but somehow we’re not getting that message across in the States. They need to be skeptical, cynical of big promises, and wary. For all intents and purposes, these people aren’t in the United States. I’ll bet very few know what’s going on in the rest of the nation and they’ve all been taught since birth that outsiders are evil and out to corrupt them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/70 "2005-06-06T15:59:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If you took this as a pot shot at religion you misunderstood me. It was a legitimate question. I took the question rhetorically, so if it was a legitimate question, I did in fact misunderstand you. Accusation of bigotry flow from that misunderstanding, so I take them back, with my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/71 "2005-06-06T16:05:41Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Oh no you did NOT just say that. You can’t really mean it, unless you support a police state. Well, you either move on this guy preemptively and maroon him in prison on trump-up charges, or sit and wait for a Waco repeat. Btw, quite a few people here already suggested to railroad this guy on charges of possible tax evasion, property laws violations, unpaid parking ticket etc. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/72 "2005-06-06T16:07:59Z")
You might have mentioned rape and kidnapping on that list, and they’d hardly be “trumped up”. Moron. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/73 "2005-06-06T16:13:22Z")
Moto, normally I disgaree with you, but I personally believe like you that if the government was truly concerned about the FLDS people, they might be able to use RICO to prosecute. One little problem that would be raised with that prosecution-where does the organization end and the individual begin? Were the cult members acting on their own, as individuals, or were they acting as members of an organization? These are the problems with trying to prosecute religious groups as far as I can tell. Sam ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/74 "2005-06-06T16:15:05Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Well, you either move on this guy preemptively and maroon him in prison on trump-up charges, or sit and wait for a Waco repeat. > > Btw, quite a few people here already suggested to railroad this guy on charges of possible tax evasion, property laws violations, unpaid parking ticket etc. You dumbfuck. These aren’t “trumped up”, and it wouldn’t be a railroading. He and his flock would certainly think so, and much of the United States’ fringe religionists would feel that way, however. That’s one of the larger reasons this probably hasn’t been moved on yet. Sam ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/75 "2005-06-06T16:46:30Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Question about Waco: Wasn’t the basis of the warrant that the Branch Dividians had converted legal semi-automatic rifles into illegal automatic rifles? I don’t remember. Neither do I, although I don’t believe any full auto weapons were used by them. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/76 "2005-06-06T16:47:26Z")
I believe that, according to previous threads, the gentleman is the beneficiary of a number of… was it welfare? Dole? payments, due to the number of women applying for state aid. This would be fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/77 "2005-06-06T16:50:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I took the question rhetorically, so if it was a legitimate question, I did in fact misunderstand you. > > Accusation of bigotry flow from that misunderstanding, so I take them back, with my apologies. Accepted, gladly. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/78 "2005-06-06T17:19:27Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > You dumbfuck. These aren’t “trumped up”, and it wouldn’t be a railroading. He and his flock would certainly think so, and much of the United States’ fringe religionists would feel that way, however. That’s one of the larger reasons this probably hasn’t been moved on yet. > > Sam Don’t waste yer electrons, **GaWd**. **New Iskander** is a creep. I may be an occasional clown, possibly the second-lowest IQ on the Board (after **lekatt** ), but **New Iskander** is a creep. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/79 "2005-06-06T17:26:26Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I believe that, according to previous threads, the gentleman is the beneficiary of a number of… was it welfare? Dole? payments, due to the number of women applying for state aid. This would be fraud. Nice little trap there, if the state springs it - since every wife after the first one isn’t legally married, she’s eligible for single-mother assistance for each child. But if she, or the husband, denies a fraud charge, they have to admit to bigamy. A hearty second to the Krakauer book. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/80 "2005-06-06T18:02:15Z")
> [@gatopescado](#): > > I didn’t bother to read the link, but if what you are asking, “Is this another Waco in the making?” means “Will this be another propaganda effort of the ATF that results in an ambush, massacre, stand-off and subsequent murder of (albiet nutty, but otherwise) law-abiding United States and foriegn national citizens”? > > I hope not. If the nut in question is home, try knocking on the door with a warrent instead of assulting the “compound” with unreasonable force with a para-militaristic outfit. > > Gee, I guess I should go read the link now…(I’m such an ass) With the idiocy that is **New Iskander** dominating most of this thread, this post almost slipped by. So, a federal agency in charge of overseeing firearms, with a [search warrant](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/2.html?sect=14) , taking appropriate precautions due to advance intel, constitutes “an ambush, massacre, stand-off and subsequent murder of (albiet nutty, but otherwise) law-abiding United States and foriegn national citizens”. They _did_ knock on the door with the warrant. Turns out, the “para-militaristic outfit” was needed. Your last aside is an understatement in the extreme. P.S. **Bosda** , don’t be so hard on yourself. I’d put you up at around eighth or ninth. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868.md?page=5)