# Is this another Waco in the making? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868 "2005-06-04T12:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/81 "2005-06-06T18:48:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You might have mentioned rape and kidnapping on that list, and they’d hardly be “trumped up”. Moron. Really? You have reliable evidence to prosecute? Anybody came forward with charges? Add ritual sacrifices to your list, why not? It’s not what you can accuse him of, it’s what you can convict him of. Honestly, first I propose to abridge this guy civil rights for greater good and I “advocate police state”. Then I say that any charges brought against this guy in the court of law may not lead to conviction, and the answer is: “Of course he’ll be convicted, you creepy moronic dumbfuck!” If you decide he’s guilty it doesn’t make his conviction automatic. “Innocent until proven guilty”, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/82 "2005-06-06T18:51:58Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Unfortunately, no matter what happens, folks will bitch. If the women and youngsters aren’t removed from the injurious situation, people will bitch. If the government takes action and it turns ugly, people will bitch. Ultimately, the armchair quarterbacks who have never done anything other than bitch, will bitch. Sorry, but I’m fed up with law enforcement being put in a damned if you do and damned if you don’t position. Sorry, I disagree. It’s blindingly clear that these people are scarring hundreds of young boys and girls for life and committing multitudes of felonies on a daily basis, all while the rest of us foot the bill for it. I don’t foresee any rational people “bitching” when they get brought down. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/83 "2005-06-06T18:52:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > she’s eligible for single-mother assistance for each child. But if she, or the husband, denies a fraud charge, they have to admit to bigamy. To be guilty of bigamy, must one obtain a marriage license from the state? If they heve one or no licenses, would they not be married by the church, but not the state? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/84 "2005-06-06T18:58:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > To be guilty of bigamy, must one obtain a marriage license from the state? > If they heve one or no licenses, would they not be married by the church, but not the state? I think what he is saying is that you can’t on the one hand claim single status in order to get assistance, and on the other hand claim to be married, no matter who sanctioned it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/85 "2005-06-06T19:14:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Sorry, I disagree. It’s blindingly clear that these people are scarring hundreds of young boys and girls for life and committing multitudes of felonies on a daily basis, all while the rest of us foot the bill for it. I don’t foresee any **rational** people “bitching” when they get brought down. _emphasis mine_ If these people are brought down, within the confines of the law and the Constitution, rational people won’t bitch. Irrational people, however, will continue to bitch, and they bitch long and loud and news stations love to give then air time. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/86 "2005-06-06T19:17:12Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Irrational people…will continue to bitch Well, who cares about them? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/87 "2005-06-06T19:20:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > To be guilty of bigamy, must one obtain a marriage license from the state? > If they heve one or no licenses, would they not be married by the church, but not the state? Exactly. If you’re not married more than once _under the law_, you can’t be committing bigamy _under the law_. Krakauer’s book made it pretty clear, that ever since Joseph Smith’s lynching, Mormons (which includes more than the LDS Church) who wished to practice polygamy would leave a \*legal \* trace of 1 marriage only for their own self-protection, even though the splinter church involved would recognize the others as just as solemn as the first (and would even order the marriage in many cases). “Lying for the Lord” is the term he quotes some of his subjects as using. The term for sucking extra money off the (heathen, Gentile-run, true-Mormon-persecuting, generally-oppressive) government by such a scheme is “bleeding the beast”. **New Iskander** : Try reading some links. You might learn something. Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Khampelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/88 "2005-06-07T01:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] The term for sucking extra money off the (heathen, Gentile-run, true-Mormon-persecuting, generally-oppressive) government by such a scheme is “bleeding the beast”. [QUOTE] They’ve certainly done that. More’s come out, Re: Gross financial mismanagement of the Colorado City School District. School District property used for private gain. I think the article link way way above mentioned their airplane. Very little was spent on the school. (Think homeschooled, but on the rosters anyway.) The Superintendant’s Business Manager’s surveying equipment for his private business was found in a district owned 4X4 pickup, along with some beer cans. There’s also a 3 Million dollar grant they can’t account for. How much it will affect Warren Jeffs, and the Trust he uses to control Colorado city depends, I suppose, on if they can prove any improper transfers of funds were made to accounts controlled by the trust. quote Phoenix New Times, John Dougherty, “Uncle Sam Wants Them” June2-8, 2005 (the lead was actually about recruiting in schools) "Says one police officer involved in the raid about those responsible for the finacial fraud: “I think we got them.” " I think this is why Jeffs is holing up in Texas, he foresaw trouble in AZ/Utah. Oh, and **Johnny LA**? Who sez onna them wacky mormons couldn’t had a FFL? then he could legaly own full auto, silencers, mebee even gas dissemating missiles. Those are fun. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/89 "2005-06-12T03:08:43Z")
Update: Looks like Warren Jeffs has been [indicted](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050611/ap_on_re_us/polygamy_indicted) in Arizona at last. No word on his whereabouts, though. Still, keep your eyes peeled for some shit to go down in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/90 "2005-06-12T05:20:00Z")
He only arranged one marriage? Huh? I thought he had arranged practically all of them–all the ones between girls and men three times their age. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/91 "2005-06-12T06:00:06Z")
It may have been the only one for which they had enough solid evidence for an indictment. Groups like this don’t tend to leave a readily-accessible paper trail. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/92 "2005-06-13T17:01:16Z")
The LA Times just ran a lengthy article on the hundreds of boys who have fled the group: > **[Lost to the Only Life They Knew](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-jun-13-na-lostboys13-story.html)** > > Officials say more than 400 teenage boys have fled or been driven from a polygamous sect. I’m certain there will be more coverage and exposure of what goes on in these communities. Where it will all lead, I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![TheBoneyKingofNowhere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@TheBoneyKingofNowhere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoneyKingofNowhere)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/93 "2005-06-15T15:50:54Z")
This does seem like something that is about to explode, but all the authorities seem to be on the same page, in that they won’t raid the compound. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/94 "2005-06-16T16:46:44Z")
I didn’t realize that they had a ‘compound’ in Canada as well. [Link to story](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050616.wxbcboun16/BNStory/National/). ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/95 "2005-06-18T07:11:14Z")
Ummm, this may be kinda dumb, but on first glance, my thoughts are… To all the civil rights concerns, and the accusations that jumping this guy early would be like what we did to Saddam (with the implication that it’s wrong), as well as the post about “trumped-up charges”… What’s wrong with sending this guy away for the absolute maximum for as many counts of minor crimes as we can get, and not letting him serve them concurrently, but making him serve them one after the other. No one felt it was wrong when they used a similar tactic on Al Capone, and he was much less… well, evil, frankly… than this sick fucktard is. Is it excessive? Probably. Is it an end run around the weaknesses of the Justice system? You bet’cha. Is it plain as day that it is still serving a greater good, and is easily justifiable? I certainly think so. The gov’ should stop pussy-footing around because they’re afraid of a fiasco, and start trying to nail this guy using any by-the-book, loophole shit they can. This is why people like the notion of characters like Jack “Hang-em High” McCoy (nickname by yours truly) on TV’s Law & Order, because they use the same manipulative, under-handed, but still within the letter of the law tactics defense attorneys have been using for some time to see Justice served. ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/96 "2005-06-18T07:15:32Z")
well, that and the fact that the writers always give him **awesome** closing arguments with masterful deliveries by Sam Waterston. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/97 "2005-06-18T14:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > **Johnny L.A.** said: > If they have automatic rifles, they they are committing a federal crime. Not necessarily. In Pennsylvania, $200 and a couple sets of finger prints will allow you to purchase, legally, a fully automatic rifle, if you have the money for the rifle itself. [/quote] > [@](#): > > Question about Waco: Wasn’t the basis of the warrant that the Branch Dividians had converted legal semi-automatic rifles into illegal automatic rifles? I don’t remember. As I understood it, Vernon Wayne Howell, aka David Koresh was a Federal Firearms License holder and had legally converted some rifles. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/98 "2005-06-18T14:58:47Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Not necessarily. In Pennsylvania, $200 and a couple sets of finger prints will allow you to purchase, legally, a fully automatic rifle, if you have the money for the rifle itself. Not unless you’re an FFL holder. Federal firears laws trump those of the states regarding automatic weapons, there is no exception in PA. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/99 "2005-06-18T15:22:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **buttonjockey308** said: > Not unless you’re an FFL holder. Federal firears laws trump those of the states regarding automatic weapons, there is no exception in PA. That’s just not the case. You do not have to be a FFL holder in order to purchase a Class III firearm. > [@](#): > > The National Firearms Act of 1934 makes it illegal for civilians to own machine guns without permission from the Federal Government. The National Firearms Act of 1934 levies a $200 tax on each newly manufactured machine gun and a $200 tax each time the ownership of the machine gun changes. In addition, each machine gun is registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) in the National Firearms Registry. From here: [http://www.fortliberty.org/american-politics/nfa.shtml](http://www.fortliberty.org/american-politics/nfa.shtml) [And here’s a link to the actual federal law.](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/stEch53.html) So while there are hoops to jump through and it’s not as easy as just buying a quart of milk at the local Stop-n-Rob, it does not require that the purchaser hold an FFL. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868/100 "2005-06-19T14:47:33Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > I didn’t realize that they had a ‘compound’ in Canada as well. [Link to story](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050616.wxbcboun16/BNStory/National/). A couple of months ago they held a press conference at which several of the women spoke very positively and rationally on their way of life, which brings me to Anaamika’s point: > [@Anaamika](#): > > What I don’t understand, and what I think we need to look at more, is why people still believe this shit. > > People need to be taught to think critically, but somehow we’re not getting that message across in the States. They need to be skeptical, cynical of big promises, and wary. For the most part, the followers of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints are not emotionally weak or psychologically unbalanced cultists. They are members of long established communities, and if we are to change them, we must recognize this These are thinking, feeling people, just like you and me. They have a social system, and they function well within their system, just as you and I do within our systems. Any effort to cut off the head of their government/religion or any effort to break up their families, would have the same effect on them as an effort to cut off the heads of our governments/religions would have on you or me. We need to differentiate between which of their beliefs and lifestyles fly in the face of basic human rights and should be changed, and which of their beliefs and lifestyles, while radically different from and perhaps offensive to ours, should be tolerated. I submit that freedom to chose one’s mate is a basic human right. Such a choice can only be made if one is mature enough, if one has a knowledge and understanding of what other social and economic choices are available, and if one has sufficient emotional and financial resources so as to be able to put a decision into effect. Each of these areas must be addressed if any significant change is to take place. Simply incarcerating the leader will not be enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-another-waco-in-the-making/306868.md?page=4)