# Is this argument against killing lesser beings valid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035 "2009-04-22T23:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/61 "2009-04-24T16:46:09Z")
> [@Mufungo](#): > > If you can make decisions about which form of life is more important on that basis, others should be allowed to decide on which form of life is important on another basis, say beauty, or size. That doesn’t follow. If a good argument can be made that one basis is the correct basis for making the distinction, then for someone to use a conflicting basis would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/62 "2009-04-24T17:01:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > No, we don’t. Now I’m really confused. How can you deny this? > > I _hope_ someone doing evil will stop, but I don’t generally _expect_ them to stop. (To be a bit more precise, whether or not I expect them to stop depends on the particular case. I have no general expectation that people doing evil will stop. In fact, gun to my head, I’d say in general I expect people doing evil will tend to keep doing evil.) > > I’m a bit dumbfounded as to how to argue for this point. It strikes me as basic. Apologies for that! Maybe not stop on his own, I’ll freely grant you that. But it seems to me that there is a strong belief that should an evildoer be made to realize what he’s doing is wrong, he would stop doing it on his own - no one may know what it’s like to be the bad man ;), but no one \*wants \*to be the bad man. For example, there are many reasons to put a criminal behind bars, some good some bad, but one of them is that hopefully he’ll use the timeout to figure out that what he did was wrong, why it was wrong, and not keep on doing it once he’s a free man again. It may be unrealistic or unlikely, but then again human behavior is often motivated by unrealistic expectations. ETA : in fact, I’d say that’s exactly the point of the OP : tell meat eaters “you’re all bad !”, in the hope that they’ll grok it and stop eating meat from then on. > [@](#): > > That’s fair enough. You did _say_ that an alien eating us isn’t evil. But I can accept that you misspoke. I’m afraid I’m very much the kind of person who tries to write what he thinks as he is thinking it, and fails to keep up :(. Not the clearest tar pitch in the lagoon, is me. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/63 "2009-04-24T17:20:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Relate it back to the OP. > > To repeat my comment from my preceding post: > > So, say the higher beings summoned you and said: “You seem to experience a lot of displeasure watching your friends get killed and eaten. Can you give us any moral argument that what we’re doing is wrong?” you’d respond with “No, not really. We eat chickens after all…”. Have you seen what happens after predators make a kill? The prey animals typically simply go back to eating the grass. They’re not bothered by others being killed. Unlike animals we are both sapient and sentient and can both express and act on our displeasure with respect to individuals to whom we are not related. There is my answer to your higher being. > [@](#): > > And I’m sorry but I’ve said several times for me it is all about the suffering, not the killing. When I look at flocks of sheep and herds of cattle, I don’t see any of them suffering. > [@](#): > > Keeping a chicken in a cage its whole life is immoral, whether you kill it or not. You speak for yourself. Do not presume to speak for others. It so happens that I do not like the fact that chicken are factory farmed. But to call it immoral is a step too far. I’ve been in a battery henhouse, many years go; the hens looked perfectly happy. I have no problem buying battery eggs. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what you’re arguing here. Perhaps that “Prey getting eaten is natural. Doing what is natural is morally right, therefore eating meat is morally right”. No. You’re overthinking things. It was simply a statement of fact about the life cycle of prey animals. For me, eating meat is neither morally right, nor morally wrong. It’s just part of life. Besides, you have no problem with eating meat do you? You just said that your problem is with the suffering. So if the creature doesn’t suffer, then for you, it’s not immoral to eat it. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/64 "2009-04-24T17:39:18Z")
How about if we fit the chicken with cybernetic parts and make it watch TV? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/65 "2009-04-24T17:52:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Maybe not stop on his own, I’ll freely grant you that. > But it seems to me that there is a strong belief that should an evildoer be made to realize what he’s doing is wrong, he would stop doing it on his own - no one may know what it’s like to be the bad man ;), [random]You know, I’ve heard that line a million times, and understood it and everything, but never really paid attention to it. For some reason, in this context, when you repeated the line, I stopped and thought about the line for a few seconds and—holy cow, it’s a pretty profound little sentence! So thanks for bringing me to that realization.[/random] > [@](#): > > but no one \*wants \*to be the bad man. For example, there are many reasons to put a criminal behind bars, some good some bad, but one of them is that hopefully he’ll use the timeout to figure out that what he did was wrong, why it was wrong, and not keep on doing it once he’s a free man again. > > It may be unrealistic or unlikely, but then again human behavior is often motivated by unrealistic expectations. > ETA : in fact, I’d say that’s exactly the point of the OP : tell meat eaters “you’re all bad !”, in the hope that they’ll grok it and stop eating meat from then on. In this sense of expect, then, I _do_ expect the alien to stop eating humans, once I’ve explained to it why doing so is wrong. Now we understand each other I think. You closet cannibal. > [@](#): > > I’m afraid I’m very much the kind of person who tries to write what he thinks as he is thinking it, and fails to keep up :(. Not the clearest tar pitch in the lagoon, is me. There’s nothing to be sad about here at all. Thinking out loud can be the purest form of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/66 "2009-04-28T14:04:31Z")
Oops, forgot about this thread. Attempting to resurrect… > [@Quartz](#): > > Have you seen what happens after predators make a kill? The prey animals typically simply go back to eating the grass. They’re not bothered by others being killed. The whole “displeasure” thing in my hypothetical was irrelevent to my argument. The point is, you said that chicken and sheep are prey species and therefore “supposed to be eaten”. I asked what would stop a higher being from considering us prey, to which you’ve said “nothing”. Ergo, in your opinion, if we meet a higher race then humans are supposed to be eaten. > [@](#): > > When I look at flocks of sheep and herds of cattle, I don’t see any of them suffering. Me neither, and as long as they live long lives, and die painlessly, I have no problem with eating them. > [@](#): > > You speak for yourself. Do not presume to speak for others. It so happens that I do not like the fact that chicken are factory farmed. But to call it immoral is a step too far. Well, I _was_ simply speaking of my own opinion. What I said exactly was: “…for me it is all about the suffering, not the killing. Killing bacteria is not at all immoral to me. Keeping a chicken in a cage its whole life is immoral, whether you kill it or not”. The final line was also meant to be IMO. > [@](#): > > You just said that your problem is with the suffering. So if the creature doesn’t suffer, then for you, it’s not immoral to eat it. Right? Yes. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Do we begrudge Alien or zombies ? Do we think they shouldn’t eat us because it’s not nice ? No. We hate them, and we fear them, and we deem them evil because they eat us. But we never expect them to stop eating us. I don’t know who you’re including in “we”, but no, I disagree. If a sentient being chose to kill humans, then that race is committing an evil act, period, and the fact the action is affecting humans is irrelevant. OTOH, a non-sentient being cannot make a moral choice and is basically a force of nature, and not really culpable. > [@](#): > > Consider something akin to the Matrix. Humans are being grown in pods by aliens. They do not know it, nor do they suffer from it for one second, because they believe they’re experiencing a normal life. When lunchtime comes, a drug is added to the human food supply, and he dies peacefully in his sleep, after which his body is processed and cooked. > Is it immoral for aliens to do so ? Would it be immoral for humans to do so ? And is the guy doing the rounds with red pills the hero, or the asshole ? I already covered something like this. Basically, I would say it was immoral too but nothing to do with suffering in this case. You are deceiving people, and denying them whatever potential they may achieve in the real world. And you’re denying them a choice. But, if the aliens presented humans the _option_ of living in a matrix, then sure, I don’t see any moral issue. > [@Mufungo](#): > > Death is Death. If you must take a life, do it with respect, but admit it. Trying to say that cute pigs are more important than ugly broccoli is kind of silly. No it isn’t. For a start, let’s consider the extreme: we all consider a human life to be more important than a bacterium’s. Right? Right??? And these things that make a human more important than a bacterium are possessed by animals to various extents. A cute or otherwise pig has a nervous system and may well feel subjective pain as we do. I don’t like to cause subjective pain. A pig may have some rudimentary sense of happiness. I don’t like to end happiness. And so on. It’s really that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/67 "2009-04-29T12:52:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And these things that make a human more important than a bacterium are possessed by animals to various extents. A cute or otherwise pig has a nervous system and may well feel subjective pain as we do. I don’t like to cause subjective pain. A pig may have some rudimentary sense of happiness. I don’t like to end happiness. And so on. It’s really that simple. Precisely right! Which is why I insist that all my chicken legs are cage-farmed, my porkchops taken from pigs crammed together as densely as possible in their own filth, and my beefsteaks cut out of cows who have witnessed their offspring made into veal cutlets. Because that way, my eating them increases overall animal happiness, by ending their miserable existences. What I protest is the inhumane creation of an illusion of life everlasting on the free range. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/68 "2009-04-29T13:01:26Z")
> [@Enterprise](#): > > Precisely right! Which is why I insist that all my chicken legs are cage-farmed, my porkchops taken from pigs crammed together as densely as possible in their own filth, and my beefsteaks cut out of cows who have witnessed their offspring made into veal cutlets. Because that way, my eating them increases overall animal happiness, by ending their miserable existences. What I protest is the inhumane creation of an illusion of life everlasting on the free range. I’m gonna risk the whoosh and ask: You’re joking, right? Because if this was a tongue-in-cheek poke at my principle, it of course doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/69 "2009-04-29T14:25:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m gonna risk the whoosh and ask: You’re joking, right? > Because if this was a tongue-in-cheek poke at my principle, it of course doesn’t work. I was joking somewhat, it’s true. Not entirely, though. You would have, and I quote, things that you eat “live long lives, and die painlessly,” and then you’d be happy to eat them. Apart from the fact that this, so far, has not included “happy lives” (but I’ll take it for granted, even though “happiness” seems a rather evolved concept to apply to a pig, cow, sheep, chicken, lobster, or what have you), it also makes your principle a bit difficult to accept. Don’t eat feeling, living things, that’s a principle. Don’t eat feeling, living things too soon and making it feel pain, that’s much less of a principle; it hinges on a non-existant definition of what a suitably “long” life would be, and on the ability of an animal to feel pain – which animals without what we would call sentience (another rather ill-defined and badly testable thing) might, while others (even humans!) with sentience might not. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/70 "2009-04-29T16:40:19Z")
> [@Enterprise](#): > > I was joking somewhat, it’s true. Not entirely, though. You would have, and I quote, things that you eat “live long lives, and die painlessly,” and then you’d be happy to eat them. Apart from the fact that this, so far, has not included “happy lives” (but I’ll take it for granted, even though “happiness” seems a rather evolved concept to apply to a pig, cow, sheep, chicken, lobster, or what have you), it also makes your principle a bit difficult to accept. Don’t eat feeling, living things, that’s a principle. Don’t eat feeling, living things too soon and making it feel pain, that’s much less of a principle; it hinges on a non-existant definition of what a suitably “long” life would be, and on the ability of an animal to feel pain – which animals without what we would call sentience (another rather ill-defined and badly testable thing) might, while others (even humans!) with sentience might not. Ah OK. I was just concerned that your point was merely that it’s better to eat animals that have suffered because you’re putting them out of their misery: which obviously doesn’t work because at point of sale you aren’t ending anything’s misery and you’re putting money in the pocket of those cruel farms. But instead your real point is a good one. We don’t know if pigs feel happiness, pain, sadness etc. We’re trying to extrapolate our own experiences (just as I try to extrapolate my subjective experience to other humans). But certainly I don’t think we would have good grounds for assuming pigs _do not_ feel pain as we do. Hence the (possibly temporary) moral imperative not to cause them suffering. And yeah, the long lives thing is interesting. If they just basically do the same shit every day, and aren’t even aware of the passage of time, then does it matter if they lead short lives? I suppose not. And what about if a pig’s life is generally miserable? Does that make it evil to breed pigs? Again, trying to extrapolate from my own life, I’d say: not necessarily. As a human, I value existence in itself, such that even a life of negative experiences is better than non-existence, _within reason_. But of course trying to put more detail into this, and coming up with hard and fast rules is a real challenge. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035/71 "2009-04-30T12:12:55Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > * * * > > Edit: The title of my thread is deceptive. I meant to ask whether my rebuttal is valid, not whether this is a knock-down argument against meat consumption. Compassion for a ‘lesser being’ as you put it comes out of love, not from criticism, and is a personal learning experience. At this time in his life it seems like he is in the place where he really has to eat meet in the quantity and quality he does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-argument-against-killing-lesser-beings-valid/494035.md?page=3)