# Is this cartoon racist (Tennis). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230 "2018-09-12T17:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/261 "2018-09-14T00:03:19Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Those racist characterizations were themselves caricatures. Why is it surprising that legitimate caricatures share characteristics? How could it be otherwise? “How could it be otherwise”? Well, your cartoonists could have the barest awareness of the history of their own medium, and perhaps exercise the barest modicum of effort to avoid stomping on clearly marked beartraps, for a start. This is sort of like saying “how can a reasonable person avoid being accused of impersonating a police officer? If I happen to be wearing a blue uniform, a badge, and a gunbelt, it could just be coincidence!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/262 "2018-09-14T00:15:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > no, you haven’t. You’ve \*asserted \*it several times like you just did then Of course I \*asserted \*it. It’s _what I think_, wasn’t that the question? > [@](#): > > Context would be an understanding of why it was being spoken or shouted in either case. No. The volume itself _is_ context. > [@](#): > > You haven’t given any context in either scenario. Yes, I have. Volume, and size of audience, and location. All of these are context. Is it possible you don’t know what context actually means? > [@](#): > > The volume may or may not be relevant. I have absolutely no way of knowing and you haven’t elaborated. Like I said right at the start - equivocation. I specified 3 things about each example. A sincere debater would assume I did so intentionally. An intentional equivocator would look for the loopholes that let him out of acknowledging the obvious differences. > [@](#): > > That is a very low debating tactic. That’s rich. I was asking a question for clarification. > [@](#): > > Your comment about artists lying was made for the first time just now. Did you assume all this time I thought the artist was _honest when he said he had no racist intent in the OP’s linked article_? All my posts saying I think this cartoon is racist are clearly also me calling the artist a liar. I didn’t think it needed spelling out. Obviously, I was mistaken. I apologize for thinking you’d see the obvious. > [@](#): > > You can’t retroactively take a comment of mine and say it doesn’t agree with something you’ve _just said_ in clarification. I would think the “Ha Ha Ha. No” was already an obvious statement. I wasn’t clarifying, I was asking for clarification, as I don’t understand what you reference by “your previous comments” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/263 "2018-09-14T00:23:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > We should automatically assume that anyone drawing a caricature of an ethnic person is racist? Was that what I said? No, I believe, if you follow the chain, you’ll see that I’m saying it’s specifically using exaggerated ethnic features in your caricature that would automatically lead to the assumption one is racist. So no, not any caricaturist. Just the shitty racist ones. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/264 "2018-09-14T00:44:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > “How could it be otherwise”? Well, your cartoonists could have the barest awareness of the history of their own medium, and perhaps exercise the barest modicum of effort to avoid stomping on clearly marked beartraps, for a start. > > This is sort of like saying “how can a reasonable person avoid being accused of impersonating a police officer? If I happen to be wearing a blue uniform, a badge, and a gunbelt, it could just be coincidence!” Again, caricatures rely on exaggerated physical characteristics. By definition of the word “caricature”. That the art form was used for absolutely racist purposes in the past does not mean that all exaggerated physical characteristics moving forward have racist purposes. So, it’s not sort of like saying that at all. Any of the cited examples of “non-racist” caricatures of Serena Williams if put into a negative context would all of a sudden become racist by these definitions, thus making her uncaricaturable. That’s probably not a word though. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/265 "2018-09-14T00:53:59Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Your second sentence is begs the question. A caricature that shares the characteristics is of historical racist characterizations is not legitimate precisely _because_ it shares those characteristics. If that leaves no non-legitimate caricatures in your repertoire, your options are to learn to be a better caricaturist, to quit using caricatures, or to accept that people calling you a racist are correct. Actually, your conclusion is nothing but an opinion. The reason the ridiculous caricatures of the past and some of the present were or are racist is because the person responsible for the drawing is intending the art to be racist. Just like using language can be racist depending upon intent, some aspects of the same racist language can be used completely non racistly. If you were to do a caricature of someone who happened to be black and had large lips, like Biggie, you’d be doing a disservice to the form to draw tiny little lips so as to not offend. [Richmond Illustration Inc.](https://www.tomrichmond.com/2016/10/09/sunday-mailbag-caricatures-and-ethnicity/) The above is a link to a caricature of Biggie and a brief essay. It would help many to read it. Of course, those who think all negative or satirical treatment of the perpetually oppressed is off limits may disagree. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/266 "2018-09-14T00:57:28Z")
I think the answer is by necessity a subjective answer. Think about it for a minute, can a series of lines, dots, slashes, shadings, etc. be racist? Eventually we begin to get into some really abstract territory and also how the human brain functions and mirror neurons and all kinds of shit. You’d also have to see into the mind of the cartoonist both consciously and subconsciously, which is pretty much impossible. In my opinion it isn’t racist but it’s impossible to prove either positively or negatively unless we have an honest dialogue with the illustrator and maybe not even then. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/267 "2018-09-14T01:10:18Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Yes, it is racist. > Unfortunately, Serena _was_ fat, big-lipped, huge-mouthed,irrational and screaming like a baby. > I disagree about the frazzle-haired though. > Actually, I disagree about the screaming like a baby. She was screaming like a drunk dockworker. > > Did she deserve the penalties she got? Hell yes. > Did she receive biased treatment from the umpire? Not compared to that same umpire’s last couple of years on the job. > Comparing the umpire’s actions to those of the McEnroe era is ludicrous, that is from two generations ago!! > Compare it to recent standards, and you will see that every tennis player that acted like a spoilt brat, high on his/her entitlement, has been treated the exact same way. > Of course, at this time, the _only_ international tennis player that acts like that is Serena. You must have missed the multiple tweets by current male tennis stars like Djokovic that say they’ve said worse things to Ramos and not gotten a warning or penalty (including Ramos going so far as to say “stop, or I’ll have to give you a penalty”). The bright red lips are what sealed the caricature as racist. That’s Aunt Jemima-level bullshit right there. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/268 "2018-09-14T01:47:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If John McEnroe went into politics (christ! we shouldn’t even joke about these things in the current climate) the caricaturists would draw him in tight shorts and sweat band and a wooden wilson racquet would be shoehorned in there somewhere. > > Putting big earrings on a Serena Williams caricature is perfectly valid. But this illustrates precisely why caricature is inherently problematic and should be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/269 "2018-09-14T01:57:27Z")
I have often heard variations of the phrase “Just because you experience racism all the time doesn’t mean everything is racism”. My interpretation of this is that it takes two components for racism, or any -ism for that matter, to exist in a society. Namely a belief held, subconscious or otherwise, by members of a society’s dominant race, in the inferiority of a group of people based on the color of their skin _and_ member(s) of that targeted race experiencing a combination of unique and unreasonable hurdles as a result of those beliefs of the dominant race. What it also means is that the individual perception of racism, on it’s own, is not always sufficient for a charge of racism to be genuine and true. As well as just because the person(s) being accused of racism believes, honestly, that they are not being or perpetuating racism does not in any way mean they are correct. I think it’s a stumbling block, on both sides, in the war on racism. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/270 "2018-09-14T02:18:02Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I have often heard variations of the phrase “Just because you experience racism all the time doesn’t mean everything is racism”. My interpretation of this is that it takes two components for racism, or any -ism for that matter, to exist in a society. Namely a belief held, subconscious or otherwise, by members of a society’s dominant race, in the inferiority of a group of people based on the color of their skin _and_ member(s) of that targeted race experiencing a combination of unique and unreasonable hurdles as a result of those beliefs of the dominant race. > > What it also means is that the individual perception of racism, on it’s own, is not always sufficient for a charge of racism to be genuine and true. As well as just because the person(s) being accused of racism believes, honestly, that they are not being or perpetuating racism does not in any way mean they are correct. I think it’s a stumbling block, on both sides, in the war on racism. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/271 "2018-09-14T02:27:07Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Namely a belief held, subconscious or otherwise, by members of a society’s dominant race, in the inferiority of a group of people based on the color of their skin _and_ member(s) of that targeted race experiencing a combination of unique and unreasonable hurdles as a result of those beliefs of the dominant race. You cite dominant race twice here… as if minorities can’t be racist. That’s repugnant. This is a woefully ineffective definition of racism, and I reject it handily. Prejudicial or preferential treatment in contexts where it is inappropriate (there’s a long list for what constitutes “inappropriate”, but it excludes sexual preference and includes business, for instance), based upon race. It doesn’t matter which race is dominant, and to argue otherwise is giving **inappropriately prejudicial or preferential treatment based on race.** ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/272 "2018-09-14T02:31:54Z")
He didn’t say minorities couldn’t be racist. They can be. Is it as systemic, horrible and life debilitating? Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/273 "2018-09-14T02:35:42Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > He didn’t say minorities couldn’t be racist. They can be. Is it as systemic, horrible and life debilitating? Maybe not. His definition specifically excludes minorities from being racist. They are not the “dominant race” and therefore, under that definition, cannot be racist. It’s a sentiment I hear a lot, and it’s aggravating because it’s both wrong and extremely hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/274 "2018-09-14T02:48:53Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > You cite dominant race twice here… as if minorities can’t be racist. That’s repugnant. This is a woefully ineffective definition of racism, and I reject it handily. > > Prejudicial or preferential treatment in contexts where it is inappropriate (there’s a long list for what constitutes “inappropriate”, but it excludes sexual preference and includes business, for instance), based upon race. It doesn’t matter which race is dominant, and to argue otherwise is giving **inappropriately prejudicial or preferential treatment based on race.** Let me use my disability as an analogy as an attempt to explain. I belong to a minority group that is disabled people, specifically wheelchair users. Marginalization is something that I am familiar with and can recognize in other minority groups as well. It is this marginalization that affects the _second_ component of what constitutes racism. And that is it’s **unique and unreasonable** hurdles experienced by members of the race on the receiving end of these beliefs of inferiority held by members of the dominant race. While anyone and everyone can believe other people or races are inferior based on skin color, only the dominant group/race actually wields significant power to negatively impact the lives of those they believe to be inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/275 "2018-09-14T02:49:39Z")
If the minorities are in a position (in any place and time) to negatively affect you due to your race, then they are in a dominant position (for that time and place). ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/276 "2018-09-14T02:59:03Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > If the minorities are in a position (in any place and time) to negatively affect you due to your race, then they are in a dominant position (for that time and place). Perfect. Very succint. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/277 "2018-09-14T03:09:45Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Let me use my disability as an analogy as an attempt to explain. I belong to a minority group that is disabled people, specifically wheelchair users. Marginalization is something that I am familiar with and can recognize in other minority groups as well. It is this marginalization that affects the _second_ component of what constitutes racism. And that is it’s **unique and unreasonable** hurdles experienced by members of the race on the receiving end of these beliefs of inferiority held by members of the dominant race. While anyone and everyone can believe other people or races are inferior based on skin color, only the dominant group/race actually wields significant power to negatively impact the lives of those they believe to be inferior. {side bar} Taking notes (re: the other thread) {/side bar} ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/278 "2018-09-14T03:17:51Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > {side bar} > Taking notes (re: the other thread) > {/side bar} ?? ETA: the thread talking about autism? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/279 "2018-09-14T05:02:24Z")
That anyone could defend the OP ‘cartoon’ as ‘not racist’ is baffling. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/280 "2018-09-14T05:05:58Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > That anyone could defend the OP ‘cartoon’ as ‘not racist’ is baffling. Maybe. But not surprising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=15)