# Is this cartoon racist (Tennis). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230 "2018-09-12T17:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/61 "2018-09-12T18:54:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Because errr, that would be the hair colour and style the current US Open champion wore during the match in [question.](https://www.sbnation.com/tennis/2018/9/8/17835482/us-open-tennis-results-2018-womens-title-naomi-osaka-serena-williams) That picture of Naomi doesn’t look anything like the blonde, northern European depicted in the cartoon. NOTHING like her at all. Naomi looks like the Japanese/Haitian woman that she is. A “Jap”, however, isn’t too much better than an “N”, so the author needed something Aryan as contrast in order to emphasize the horrible, Black, ugly woman that he obviously believes Serena to be. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/62 "2018-09-12T18:57:26Z")
The blonde Northern European woman who has the same skin tone as Serena in the cartoon. Yeah right… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/63 "2018-09-12T18:59:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I have to say that the other, supposedly “positive” caricatures of Serena mentioned in this thread are not in any meaningful way different from the one getting all the heat apart from one thing, they are showing her in a positive light… > > I look online for caricatures of other famous black people and the same things are there, no huge fuss. Look at Gerald Scarfe’s pretty scathing drawings for examples of the high-end of caricatures. As people used to say, this. On another note, thanks for turning me on to the drawings of Gerald Scarfe. [This](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/46/db/f446dbd7e849adc876ee74ce8e2714d2.jpg) one of the Stones is fucking _fantastic_ and I hope I can find a print of it somewhere. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/64 "2018-09-12T19:08:22Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > [This](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) is a caricature of Serena Williams that was posted earlier in the thread both by me and by Buck Godot. It is not racist. The caricature posted in the OP is racist. There is no reason that the non-racist version could not be depicted crying, screaming and jumping up and down to make the point of the original cartoon without being racist. > > Is there a part of this position that you do not agree with? Yes, there is. If it hasn’t been clear from what I’ve posted, I apologize, but I don’t think the OP drawing is racist. I think it’s a rather scathing caricature, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/65 "2018-09-12T19:23:57Z")
I concur. I have to call it racist because otherwise someone might punch me in the face? That does not strike as a useful standard. Is it still racist if I am Batman, and prepared? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/66 "2018-09-12T19:25:52Z")
It’s a cruelly effective caricature of Serena. Before being enlightened about the fact that Osaka had a blonde ponytail I would’ve said that portion of the cartoon arguably veered over the line, but now I don’t think that makes the cartoon racist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/67 "2018-09-12T19:29:36Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > [This](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) is a caricature of Serena Williams that was posted earlier in the thread both by me and by Buck Godot. It is not racist. She is big, black, scary-looking, and has big lips and frizzy hair. Isn’t that a racist caricature? It was when she was depicted as throwing a tantrum. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/68 "2018-09-12T19:35:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I concur. I have to call it racist because otherwise someone might punch me in the face? That does not strike as a useful standard. > > Is it still racist if I am Batman, and prepared? > > Regards, > Shodan I think the idea was, a good test for racism would be to ask yourself whether the potentially offended party would say it’s racist - and if by some miracle you actually cared what they thought. The whole point of the “he’ll punch you in the face/he’ll Martin Luther King shame you” business is because without that sort of thing, it’s generally assumed that the average person is a horrible selfish monster who takes active pleasure in being offensive. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/69 "2018-09-12T19:39:30Z")
Yes it’s racist. [Here’s a (rather gentle, actually) example of the “ignorant savage” cartoon](https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&tbm=isch&hl=en&as_q=cartoon&as_epq=&as_oq=African+savage+pygmy&as_eq=&imgsz=&imgar=&imgc=&imgcolor=&imgtype=&cr=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=0WBmf39mDJDF6M:) most of us can recognize. Note that it shares two feature with the racist cartoon that all of the non-racist examples of Serena drawings do not have: 1. Topknot 2. Large earrings In actual photos of the event, Serena’s hair was tied toward the back of her head, not in a topknot, and she certainly isn’t wearing garishly large earrings. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/70 "2018-09-12T19:40:10Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Here’s an easy way to know if something is racist. I call it the “Tyron Woodley Test” (For those who don’t know, Tyron Woodley is a UFC fighter and welterweight champion. He is also black and interestingly enough for these purposes, from Ferguson, MO.) The “Tyron Woodley Test” is a very simple test. Think of the thing that you want to say or do (or in this case advocate for.) Then think… Hmmm… if I were in a ring with Tyron Woodley, would I show this to him and say how it’s not racist, knowing full well that this very muscular and skilled black man could punch my face into hamburger? If your answer is “No, I would not,” then it’s a pretty good bet that it’s racist. If your answer is, “I’m just not sure.” then imagine that your face is a bloody pile of hamburger and ask the question again, chances are it’s racist. > > So then, applying the Tyron Woodley test to this cartoon. Imagine yourself in a ring and Tyron Woodley is standing there in a fighting stance and you have this cartoon in your pocket and you pull it out and show it to Mr. Woodley. Do you then say, “This cartoon isn’t racist at all. People need to relax.” or do you say “This cartoon is freaking racist. Guy should be ashamed.” You make the decision, but I’m pretty sure which one I’d pick. > > In an effort to make this decision easier, I direct you to the following, especially the 43 second mark and 1:45: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9fG\_cZK4us](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9fG_cZK4us) How about you send this comment to Tyron Woodley and ask how he feels, as a black man, about being portrayed as a thug who would settle any difference of opinion with violence? ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/71 "2018-09-12T19:41:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I concur. I have to call it racist because otherwise someone might punch me in the face? That does not strike as a useful standard. > > Is it still racist if I am Batman, and prepared? > > Regards, > Shodan It’s a great standard because it puts skin in the game. The basics of the question are “Would I be able to risk something valuable on the assumption that this is not offensive to a racial group?” If you’re not willing to risk something valuable on that question, then it’s probably racist. It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen being comfortably white and debate the merits of racism in a detached way. It’s much more difficult if you’re putting yourself at risk over the answer. If you can’t even put yourself at risk in a hypothetical scenario in support of your claim that it’s non-offensive, then it probably is. You’re like someone claiming pickaninny dolls are just historical or the Confederate flag is about state’s rights. When you’re looking at it from a position of power, safely ensconced in your living room and protected by all of the law enforcement white money can buy, it’s easy to make that argument. If you’re facing down someone with the legal right to impact your life negatively based on their perception of your actions, you might have a different opinion. When debating racism, it’s necessary to put yourself in the position of the oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/72 "2018-09-12T19:43:43Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How about you print out this comment, take it into the ring and show it to Tyron Woodley, and ask how he feels about a black man being portrayed as a thug? I would definitely apply the Tyron Woodley test to the Tyron Woodley test and I’m willing to bet my purty little face that he’d be fine with it. I think that it’s reasonable that a black person would like to be put in a position where they can without repurcussion revisit retribution for racist attitudes on people that perpetuate them. That’s not being a thug. That’s reversing the dynamic. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/73 "2018-09-12T19:45:29Z")
I don’t think its intended as racist - but it is damn easy to interpret that way. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/74 "2018-09-12T19:46:07Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > It’s a great standard because it puts skin in the game. The basics of the question are “Would I be able to risk something valuable on the assumption that this is not offensive to a racial group?” If you’re not willing to risk something valuable on that question, then it’s probably racist. What complete drivel. Would you go to North Korea and tell Kim that he’s a psychopath? If you are afraid to do that, does that mean he is not a psychopath? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/75 "2018-09-12T19:46:30Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I would definitely apply the Tyron Woodley test to the Tyron Woodley test and I’m willing to bet my purty little face that he’d be fine with it. I think that it’s reasonable that a black person would like to be put in a position where they can without repurcussion revisit retribution for racist attitudes on people that perpetuate them. That’s not being a thug. That’s reversing the dynamic. No it’s not. Your test is illogical and dumb. It doesn’t test anything other than might makes right and implies that the black man in the ring is just waiting to snap. Give that cartoon to a prime Fedor and have him show it to your welterweight and your test is even more pointless. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/76 "2018-09-12T19:49:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No it’s not. Your test is illogical and dumb. It doesn’t test anything other than might makes right and implies that the black man in the ring is just waiting to snap. > > Give that cartoon to a prime Fedor and have him show it to your welterweight and your test is even more pointless. I think the idea was, a good test for racism would be to ask yourself whether the potentially offended party would say it’s racist - and if by some miracle you actually cared what they thought. The whole point of the “he’ll punch you in the face/he’ll Martin Luther King shame you” business is because without that sort of thing, it’s generally assumed that the average person is a horrible selfish monster who takes active pleasure in being offensive. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/77 "2018-09-12T19:52:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think the idea was, a good test for racism would be to ask yourself whether the potentially offended party would say it’s racist - and if by some miracle you actually cared what they thought. > > The whole point of the “he’ll punch you in the face/he’ll Martin Luther King shame you” business is because without that sort of thing, it’s generally assumed that the average person is a horrible selfish monster who takes active pleasure in being offensive. So all black people speak for Serena Williams now? Do we care what a random white UFC fighter thinks when George Bush is caricaturized as a chimp? No. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/78 "2018-09-12T19:53:43Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > No, I did nothing of the kind. Caricature is subjective, and I still say unequivocally, that is NOT caricature. I did not alter my definition of what I think caricature is so I can “win” an argument. But thanks for making that assumption about me, whom you’ve never met and know nothing about. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Why would I have to know you personally to judge your arguing tactics in this thread? You provided no definition of the term before an example was given, and continue to not provide one. And yet any example given doesn’t fit. That sure suggests changing the definition to me. If I’m wrong, then tell me what your definition is. One that doesn’t seem to equivocate to leave out all of the other examples in the thread. I also note you didn’t comment on the rest of what I said. Ignore that last snarky paragraph. Do you disagree with the rest of what I said? If so, why? My argument is simply that you cannot caricature a black woman by using the old racist stereotypes. You can’t give her comically large “witch doctor” lips, make her fatter than she is, or change her kempt curly hair to that wiry mess used in racist cartoons. Any use of the stereotypes that were used before in racist caricature are not allowed, and will be deemed racist. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/79 "2018-09-12T19:54:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > What complete drivel. Would you go to North Korea and tell Kim that he’s a psychopath? If you are afraid to do that, does that mean he is not a psychopath? We’re talking about racism though. The primary question is whether or not an action is offensive to a person/group. In your Kim example, I think it’s reasonable to assume that calling him a psychopath is offensive. If we are discussing whether calling dictators psychopaths is offensive to dictators, then your Kim test has merit. It has little to do with whether or not it is true or not. Something can be true and also offensive. If I tell an Asian person, you probably got good grades, it’s statistically true, but also offensive and racist. Hiding behind “It’s true.” doesn’t excuse the offensiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/80 "2018-09-12T19:55:33Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I don’t think its intended as racist - but it is damn easy to interpret that way. Yeah. Besides the big-minstrel-lips feature, it’s a bit peculiar to show such an exaggerated contrast between the figures of Williams as huge-hulking-fatass and Osaka as slender-tall-pointynose. As you can see from [these photographs](http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/tennis/news/serena-williams-vs-naomi-osaka-us-open-2018-results-final-grand-slam-flushing-meadows/1wlf2ahq5brua1wxh26rzbog3q), Williams and Osaka are actually quite similar in height and figure (and Osaka’s nose isn’t really any more prominent than Williams’s). A casual glance at that cartoon without knowing the athletes involved would certainly give the impression, IMHO, that it’s contrasting a fat black woman with a skinny white one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=5)