# Is this cartoon racist (Tennis). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230 "2018-09-12T17:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/81 "2018-09-12T19:55:42Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I’ve heard of golliwog, what is the Sapphire stereotype? Angry Black Woman. > [@https://ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/antiblack/sapphire.htm](#): > > The Sapphire Caricature portrays black women as rude, loud, malicious, stubborn, and overbearing…She is a shrill nagger with irrational states of anger and indignation and is often mean-spirited and abusive. Although African American men are her primary targets, she has venom for anyone who insults or disrespects her. The Sapphire’s desire to dominate and her hyper-sensitivity to injustices make her a perpetual complainer, but she does not criticize to improve things; rather, she criticizes because she is unendingly bitter and wishes that unhappiness on others. The Sapphire Caricature is a harsh portrayal of African American women, but it is more than that; it is a social control mechanism that is employed to punish black women who violate the societal norms that encourage them to be passive, servile, non-threatening, and unseen. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/82 "2018-09-12T19:56:27Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > We’re talking about racism though. The primary question is whether or not an action is offensive to a person/group. In your Kim example, I think it’s reasonable to assume that calling him a psychopath is offensive. If we are discussing whether calling dictators psychopaths is offensive to dictators, then your Kim test has merit. It has little to do with whether or not it is true or not. Something can be true and also offensive. If I tell an Asian person, you probably got good grades, it’s statistically true, but also offensive and racist. Hiding behind “It’s true.” doesn’t excuse the offensiveness. Imagine a Asian UFC welterweight and you had to show him a report card would you be scared to? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/83 "2018-09-12T19:59:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So all black people speak for Serena Williams now? Do we care what a random white UFC fighter thinks when George Bush is caricaturized as a chimp? No. I get that this is complicated, but we’re talking about racism. No one person is the arbiter of racism, and if you scraped up a black guy who happily declared that nothing was racism, that wouldn’t disprove racism. When assessing racism you have to consider how black people _in general_ are likely to assess the thing in question. The idea is for you to picture not what Serena Williams thinks, but what ‘realistic but generic black person’ thinks. I get that this is difficult for a hardcore racist because they think that black people don’t think, or whatever, but that’s the question you should be asking nonetheless. Imagining that there’s an actual consequence for other people considering you racist just helps you remember to honest in your assessments. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/84 "2018-09-12T19:59:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So all black people speak for Serena Williams now? Do we care what a random white UFC fighter thinks when George Bush is caricaturized as a chimp? No. That’s actually a great point. That’s again exactly why the test works. If you were to show a random white UFC fighter (I think we’re getting too caught up in the fighter part of it, but since I brought it up, I’ll live with that.) a picture of George W as a chimp, would we expect him to be offended and thereby punch us in the face? I would say, “No” (depending upon his political persuasion, but we generally say that offending people in the name of politics is fair game.) so it’s not a racist depiction. Keep in mind, that I haven’t once come down on the side of this depiction of Serena being racist or not. I have my own opinion on the matter, but based on the defensiveness I’m seeing, I’m guessing that many of you probably don’t like the results of the Tyron Woodley test and rather than confronting that maybe your perception of the caricature is skewed, you’d rather attack the test and that’s fine. I’m not dictating how you feel about things, but it might be useful to ask yourself if the test is flawed or whether it fails to validate your opinion and so you wish to discard it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/85 "2018-09-12T19:59:31Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > [This](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) is a caricature of Serena Williams that was posted earlier in the thread both by me and by Buck Godot. It is not racist. The caricature posted in the OP is racist. There is no reason that the non-racist version could not be depicted crying, screaming and jumping up and down to make the point of the original cartoon without being racist. > > Is there a part of this position that you do not agree with? The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn’t even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/86 "2018-09-12T20:02:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Imagine a Asian UFC welterweight and you had to show him a report card would you be scared to? A random report card, probably not, that’s just confusing and not really making a statement. I wouldn’t want to say “I bet you had good grades, didn’t you?” I think that that is probably risking a throat punch, so I’m going to come down on the side of probably racist. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/87 "2018-09-12T20:06:37Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > That’s actually a great point. That’s again exactly why the test works. If you were to show a random UFC fighter (I think we’re getting too caught up in the fighter part of it, but since I brought it up, I’ll live with that.) a picture of George W as a chimp, would we expect him to be offended and thereby punch us in the face? I would say, “No” (depending upon his political persuasion, but we generally say that offending people in the name of politics is fair game.) so it’s not a racist depiction. > > Keep in mind, that I haven’t once come down on the side of this depiction of Serena being racist or not. I have my own opinion on the matter, but based on the defensiveness I’m seeing, I’m guessing that many of you probably don’t like the results of the Tyron Woodley test and rather than confronting that maybe your perception of the caricature is skewed, you’d rather attack the test and that’s fine. I’m not dictating how you feel about things, but it might be useful to ask yourself if the test is flawed or whether it fails to validate your opinion and so you wish to discard it. Because the test implies black men are dangerous and will pummel someone over a cartoon. That implication strikes me as racist. Secondly it is a statement that might makes right. That isn’t really the moral axiom most argue from nowadays. That scenario also fails from a game theory point of view. You gain 0 from showing a cartoon and not getting pummeled and you lose a lot from showing the cartoon and getting pummeled. It’s rationally a stupid test to use. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/88 "2018-09-12T20:07:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is it possible to caricature a black person without it being racist? > > Regards, > Shodan The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/89 "2018-09-12T20:13:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn’t even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. Really? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/90 "2018-09-12T20:18:42Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist. I’m pretty sure that there have been caricatures of Obama that disprove this. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/91 "2018-09-12T20:18:47Z")
> [@andros](#): > > What the entire fuck. > > Yes. > > Yes, it is a goddamn racist caricature. > > The “good person” is depicted as slim, blonde, (quite arguably) white, tidy and _quiet_. > > The “bad person” is depicted as fat, big-lipped, huge-mouthed, frazzle-haired, irrational, and screaming literally like a baby. > > It’s the Sapphire stereotype with just a touch of golliwog thrown in. > > Racist as fuck. Yeppers to all this. They turned her into a jungle bunny in a tennis dress, and like you say, had her throwing the sort of tantrum a baby throws, to boot. Yeah, all sorts of racist. Can’t imagine how anyone sees it any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/92 "2018-09-12T20:21:49Z")
I had a caricature done of me once when I was a teenager. I pretty much ended up looking like Toucan Sam. Now, I admit my nose is one of my more prominent features (I have since grown into it more), but it’s not THAT big. I was behaving perfectly well during the sitting, there was no reason for it to be unflattering (I could see maybe being a little malicious in exaggeration if the subject was behaving poorly - ever notice how Trump is always drawn with an “asshole mouth”?). Point is, it wasn’t flattering, there was no reason for it to be unflattering, and I won’t be having another caricature done of me anytime soon. But I don’t question the artist’s motives. He just took my most prominent feature and went with it. Likewise I’ve seen many caricatures of celebrities, presumably done by non-hostile artists, that look like hideous freaks if you tried to ascribe any type of realism to them. This caricature of Serena is unflattering as well. I think it was meant to be unflattering. But, I really don’t see how “off” this picture is compared to others I’ve seen of celebrities. The supposedly [“non-racist” characture](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) has big flaring nostrils the size of her eyes, big lips that protrude from\* both\* sides of her face, and for some reason, that’s not racist. Maybe because the artist is a presumably cool dude, and the other guy is just another obviously racist Australian. Seems a bit subjective. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/93 "2018-09-12T20:22:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I don’t think its intended as racist - but it is damn easy to interpret that way. Oh, bullshit. The only way this couldn’t have been ‘intended’ as racist is if racial prejudice were so deeply embedded in the cartoonist’s soul that no conscious intent on his part was needed to produce racist caricatures, that racism was his autopilot setting when considering black people. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/94 "2018-09-12T20:23:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because the test implies black men are dangerous and will pummel someone over a cartoon. That implication strikes me as racist. > > Secondly it is a statement that might makes right. That isn’t really the moral axiom most argue from nowadays. > > That scenario also fails from a game theory point of view. You gain 0 from showing a cartoon and not getting pummeled and you lose a lot from showing the cartoon and getting pummeled. It’s rationally a stupid test to use. I would say that it implies that Tyron Woodley is dangerous and that if placed in a setting where violence is acceptable, might just pummel you over being a racist. It’s not really about might makes right. If it were might makes right, the scenario would let you take a bunch of Klansman in the ring with you. It’s a scenario where you are risking your nose on the assumption that something you are doing isn’t racist. It’s certainly not about might making right because in the real world, black people don’t have enough power to enforce standards against offensive behavior. You’re currently in the mighty position, when you flip that position, is the behavior still OK? That’s really the question the scenario asks. It’s specifically attempting to control for ‘might makes right.’ The scenario is hypothetical since it’s highly unlikely that you will be getting into a real UFC ring with a black UFC fighter and it’s about being honest with yourself instead of sitting in a cloud of sophistry and academic disinterest. If you’re attempting to game the scenario, you’ve already made your decision regardless of whether or not your opinion is true. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/95 "2018-09-12T20:25:15Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist. Google for cartoons featuring OJ Simpson. You’ll see plenty of examples that are negative but not feature any exaggerated features stereotypical of African-American men. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/96 "2018-09-12T20:26:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She is big, black, scary-looking, and has big lips and frizzy hair. Isn’t that a racist caricature? It was when she was depicted as throwing a tantrum. > > Regards, > Shodan No. The cartoon I linked is an exaggerated portrait of Serena Williams. It includes her features and is recognizable as her. The cartoon in the OP is a depiction of a racial stereotype. It has discredited stereotyped features and is recognizable as an ignorant portrait of what was once called an African savage. None of this has anything to do with whether the cartoon depicts her throwing a tantrum. If the caricature I posted showed her in a negative light throwing a tantrum, and the one in the OP showed her standing and was intended to be a positive portrayal, the second one would still be racist. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/97 "2018-09-12T20:28:04Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > She’s not depicted as fat, but muscular. She had frizzy hair at the Open. Aunt Jemima lips from my era are _thinner_ than Serena’s, btw. She was ANGRY at the Open. Why is depicting her like this “stereotypical”? Do black women NOT get angry? The depiction is most definately fat. Its torso is wider than it is tall. As far as Aunt Jemima I realize she has has had a make over in recent years to make her less racist but for the purposes of stereotype[this](https://www.rubylane.com/item/174828-b1005/Vintage-Aunt-Jemima-Mammy-jar-lid) is the stereo type aunt Jemima I was thinking of. As for the rest: Did you even read my post or click on my links? The frizzy hair was the one thing I said they got right in the caricature, and yes a black woman can get angry, all of the other non-racist examples I gave had her being angry, my whole point was that it is possible to present an angry black woman without making it racist. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/98 "2018-09-12T20:28:19Z")
By the way, you all know the Herald Sun is a right-wing tabloid and not a mainstream newspaper, right? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/99 "2018-09-12T20:30:07Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I would say that it implies that Tyron Woodley is dangerous and that if placed in a setting where violence is acceptable, might just pummel you over being a racist. > > It’s not really about might makes right. If it were might makes right, the scenario would let you take a bunch of Klansman in the ring with you. It’s a scenario where you are risking your nose on the assumption that something you are doing isn’t racist. It’s certainly not about might making right because in the real world, black people don’t have enough power to enforce standards against offensive behavior. You’re currently in the mighty position, when you flip that position, is the behavior still OK? That’s really the question the scenario asks. It’s specifically attempting to control for ‘might makes right.’ > > The scenario is hypothetical since it’s highly unlikely that you will be getting into a real UFC ring with a black UFC fighter and it’s about being honest with yourself instead of sitting in a cloud of sophistry and academic disinterest. If you’re attempting to game the scenario, you’ve already made your decision regardless of whether or not your opinion is true. I get you are, for whatever reason, highly invested with your silly test. That doesn’t make it any less silly or irrelevant. Might does not make right when it comes to cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/100 "2018-09-12T20:30:39Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > …I’m guessing that many of you probably don’t like the results of the Tyron Woodley test and rather than confronting that maybe your perception of the caricature is skewed, you’d rather attack the test and that’s fine. So if we agree that your test is incredibly insightful, that’s because it’s incredibly insightful. If we disagree, it’s because your test is incredibly insightful and it has cut to the heart of our white fragility. Am I getting the hang of this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=6)