# Is this cartoon racist (Tennis). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230 "2018-09-12T17:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/101 "2018-09-12T20:31:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Because errr, that would be the hair colour and style the current US Open champion wore during the match in [question.](https://www.sbnation.com/tennis/2018/9/8/17835482/us-open-tennis-results-2018-womens-title-naomi-osaka-serena-williams) No, it wouldn’t. She has a blond ponytail, yes, but brown hair. The comic makes her entirely blonde. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/102 "2018-09-12T20:33:32Z")
To make a caricature, you take some feature of the subject that’s outside of the norm, and you draw it as even more outside the norm. If someone has a nose that’s bigger than average, you make it a lot bigger than average. If someone has an unusually short neck, then you make it even shorter, and so on. But this artist seems to have decided that the way in which Williams’ appearance is outside of the norm is that she has West African ancestry, and so exaggerated the traits associated (correctly or incorrectly) with that ancestry. The underlying assumption is that the “norm” is necessarily white. And it fails as a caricature, because it doesn’t actually look like Williams specifically, as opposed to any other black woman. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/103 "2018-09-12T20:36:39Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn’t even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. That’s my main problem with this cartoon; it’s a caricature that is a placeholder for Williams, but actually looks nothing like her. Her lips are fuller than your typical white woman’s but not thick enough to exaggerate without straying into the unrecognizable. In the cartoon, her face is consumed by the size of her lips and mouth. Her body is muscular but it’s not fat. The cartoon suggests obesity, not brawn. Truth is, very few of the cartoons that have appeared in this thread really resemble her, even the ones that don’t look like racist caricatures. I don’t know why that is; are her features that hard to capture? Her cheekbones and narrow eyes seem like easy enough things to depict. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/104 "2018-09-12T20:39:15Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist. Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I’ll quote the posts for you: > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This isn’t athletic and black, its fat with aunt Jemima lips. As an alternative consider [this](https://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/Serena%20Williams_251537) or [this](https://www.graphicnews.com/en/pages/21407/TENNIS-Serena-Williams-2007-caricature) or [this.](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) They are black, athletic, angry, clearly recognizable as Serena but to my eye at least do a better job of actually characterizing her, rather that just being stereo typical angry fat black woman with the addition of serena’s frizzy pony tail to make it recognizable as her. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I found two more caricatures of Serena that are [accurate](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/), but [not racist](https://www.caglecartoons.com/viewimage.asp?ID=%7B7787210C-F287-4613-BE82-D6B1C012E92C%7D). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/105 "2018-09-12T20:40:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist. BS. [Here](https://ladylibertytoday.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/michelle-obama-on-darden-restaurants-no-more-endless-breadsticks-the-daily-caller/)is a negative political cartoon involving Michele Obama. Negative but not at all racist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/106 "2018-09-12T20:42:12Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > No. The cartoon I linked is an exaggerated portrait of Serena Williams. It includes her features and is recognizable as her. The cartoon in the OP is a depiction of a racial stereotype. It has discredited stereotyped features and is recognizable as an ignorant portrait of what was once called an African savage. Are the discredited stereotyped features being big, muscular, black, angry, scary looking, and with big lips and frizzy hair? Or was it the tennis dress, or the destroyed racket? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/107 "2018-09-12T20:43:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I’ll quote the posts for you: > > (That said, I personally think [this one](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) edges on racism, again, because they do the big lips thing. Don’t fucking do that. That is the second most racist part of blackface–the first being the coal black skin.) Big lips aren’t racist if the person has big lips. Or even if they don’t. You got to put a bone in the nose. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/108 "2018-09-12T20:48:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are the discredited stereotyped features being big, muscular, black, angry, scary looking, and with big lips and frizzy hair? Or was it the tennis dress, or the destroyed racket? > > Regards, > Shodan The discredited features are primarily the topknot, with no hair at all above her ears, the shape and structure of the mouth, and the foreshortened pose, all of which are recognizable as offensive African stereotypes, and none of which are recognizable as Serena Williams. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/109 "2018-09-12T21:01:56Z")
It strikes me that someone who is in the cartooning business should know the difference even if some of us here, ahem, don’t. This seems like your typical right-wing “build the deniability in up front” ploy, so that when someone points out the racism you can say: “That’s not what I meant at all. You must be the one with the problem.” In short, all the asshole of the honest racist but none of the balls. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/110 "2018-09-12T21:03:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > What the entire fuck. > > Yes. > > Yes, it is a goddamn racist caricature. > > The “good person” is depicted as slim, blonde, (quite arguably) white, tidy and _quiet_. > > The “bad person” is depicted as fat, big-lipped, huge-mouthed, frazzle-haired, irrational, and screaming literally like a baby. > > It’s the Sapphire stereotype with just a touch of golliwog thrown in. > > Racist as fuck. I have to agree with you. Not about Osaka so much, she really does have some blonde hair and you can’t really see her facial features very well, but the Williams depiction is certainly racist. I don’t really see how it could be argued otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/111 "2018-09-12T21:10:44Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/112 "2018-09-12T21:13:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why would I have to know you personally to judge your arguing tactics in this thread? You provided no definition of the term before an example was given, and continue to not provide one. And yet any example given doesn’t fit. That sure suggests changing the definition to me. > > If I’m wrong, then tell me what your definition is. One that doesn’t seem to equivocate to leave out all of the other examples in the thread. > > I also note you didn’t comment on the rest of what I said. Ignore that last snarky paragraph. Do you disagree with the rest of what I said? If so, why? > > My argument is simply that you cannot caricature a black woman by using the old racist stereotypes. You can’t give her comically large “witch doctor” lips, make her fatter than she is, or change her kempt curly hair to that wiry mess used in racist cartoons. > > Any use of the stereotypes that were used before in racist caricature are not allowed, and will be deemed racist. You suggested then, and do so again here by the use of the word “tactics” and by suggesting that I will look until I find a definition that suits my argument best, that I am not out to debate fairly, but to do the opposite just to come out on top in an argument. Certainly there are many people who do this online. I do not. If you have evidence that I do, then show it, otherwise you are making an unfounded assumption. Do we really have to start defining commonly known terms? Fine, I’ll go with this one, the first one I found just so you know: “a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.” The Knight cartoon does this, unquestionably. It is a caricature. The other in question, shown [here](https://twitter.com/deadder/status/1039129090316492800), while not a completely accurate depiction of Serena nor McEnroe, does not reach the level of caricature, nor even come close. I see not a single exaggerated feature, for instance. Of course this is my opinion. It’s okay if we disagree about if it is a caricature. Just know this is my honest belief, and not a tactic. As for your comments about Serena, yes, I should have responded. I apologize. So, here: in the cartoon, Serena is not overly fat, but she certainly isn’t thin in real life, either. Serena’s hair at the Open was frizzy and somewhat unkempt, which the artist exaggerated. I don’t know what “normal” lips are, but Serena’s aren’t exactly thin. Exaggerated in the cartoon, but not to a racist degree. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/113 "2018-09-12T21:22:40Z")
This story on the cartoon includes a bit of reaction to it, including from black women: [This cartoon of Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka is being called out for presenting racist tropes](https://mic.com/articles/191194/serena-williams-naomi-osaka-racist-cartoon-australia-herald-sun) I would also disagree with Shodan’s assertion that Williams is “scary looking.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/114 "2018-09-12T21:28:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn’t even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. Fair enough, but the artist, for what I know about him, is a cartoonist first, and not really a caricaturist. Doesn’t mean he can’t draw a caricature of course, even if it’s a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/115 "2018-09-12T21:41:17Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The depiction is most definately fat. Its torso is wider than it is tall. As far as Aunt Jemima I realize she has has had a make over in recent years to make her less racist but for the purposes of stereotype[this](https://www.rubylane.com/item/174828-b1005/Vintage-Aunt-Jemima-Mammy-jar-lid) is the stereo type aunt Jemima I was thinking of. > > As for the rest: Did you even read my post or click on my links? The frizzy hair was the one thing I said they got right in the caricature, and yes a black woman can get angry, all of the other non-racist examples I gave had her being angry, my whole point was that it is possible to present an angry black woman without making it racist. Fair enough on Aunt Jemima, and you are correct on my ‘angry’ comment also. I badly misinterpreted what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/116 "2018-09-12T21:50:17Z")
No, not racist. It shows exaggerated caricature features and shows the actions of a specific individual. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/117 "2018-09-12T22:08:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, bullshit. The only way this couldn’t have been ‘intended’ as racist is if racial prejudice were so deeply embedded in the cartoonist’s soul that no conscious intent on his part was needed to produce racist caricatures, that racism was his autopilot setting when considering black people. I guess there’s no reason to continue the discussion, then. Thanks for clearing this up. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/118 "2018-09-12T22:26:39Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I guess there’s no reason to continue the discussion, then. Thanks for clearing this up. In all seriousness, I’m not serious what you hope to achieve through your continued argument. Your opposition has clearly laid out objective reasons why the character in question is racist - it hews closer to classic racist caricatures than to a caricature of the specific person in question, and only does this for the black person. The response to this seems to vacillate between “I don’t see it and I’m the god-emperor of racism” and “There’s no such thing as racism unless there’s a bone through their nose”. Those are pretty poor responses. Are you planning to do better? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/119 "2018-09-12T22:27:30Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Yes it’s racist. [Here’s a (rather gentle, actually) example of the “ignorant savage” cartoon](https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&tbm=isch&hl=en&as_q=cartoon&as_epq=&as_oq=African+savage+pygmy&as_eq=&imgsz=&imgar=&imgc=&imgcolor=&imgtype=&cr=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=0WBmf39mDJDF6M:) most of us can recognize. > > Note that it shares two feature with the racist cartoon that all of the non-racist examples of Serena drawings do not have: > > 1. Topknot > 2. Large earrings > > In actual photos of the event, Serena’s hair was tied toward the back of her head, not in a topknot, and she certainly isn’t wearing garishly large earrings. You link to a google search? Seriously? Basically none of the first page results are remotely racist on my google. And the original OPs cartoon does not have large earings. That said, he OP cartoon is pretty hard to defend. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/120 "2018-09-12T22:33:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn’t even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. Yeah, when I first looked at it I was in the “doesn’t seem racist to me, but I could see how others might find it racist” camp, but considering the above, that seems to suggest a higher likelihood that it was intentional (or perhaps subconsciously drawing racist stereotypes). That being said, frizzy hair + tennis racket basically is all that’s needed to identify her as Serena - I haven’t seen any of the cartoonists other work so who knows if he even has the skills to do a good caricature. If he has accurately caricatured other people in the past and went with a generic stereotypical look here, that seems more incriminating than if none of the drawings that he does ever look like the intended subject. Does the artist have a past history of racist content? It’s interesting how subjective everyone’s take on the picture is, though - the character definitely looks muscular to me, not fat, and it also doesn’t look like a top knot to me - it just looks like to me that the character is jumping with her torso leaned forward. The face/lips are the only things that look stereotypical to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=7)