# Is this cartoon racist (Tennis). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230 "2018-09-12T17:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/121 "2018-09-12T22:51:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > In all seriousness, I’m not serious what you hope to achieve through your continued argument. Your opposition has clearly laid out objective reasons why the character in question is racist - it hews closer to classic racist caricatures than to a caricature of the specific person in question, and only does this for the black person. The response to this seems to vacillate between “I don’t see it and I’m the god-emperor of racism” and “There’s no such thing as racism unless there’s a bone through their nose”. Those are pretty poor responses. Are you planning to do better? That comment is in regard to whatever **RTFirefly** might respond with, should he chose to do so, in regards to specific reasons he may have to support his contention that the cartoon is racist. Short of that, or _new_ arguments made by others, I in fact don’t intend to continue the discussion. I’ve said my piece. As for the rest of your post, you have conveniently left out specific, credible arguments against the racism accusation, while pretending that the only other relevant comments are about bones through noses, or god-emperors of racism, whatever the hell they are. Finally, I don’t intend to go back through the thread and quote better, “non-poor” responses here, but I think if you do, you will surely find some. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/122 "2018-09-12T23:01:28Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > As for the rest of your post, you have conveniently left out specific, credible arguments against the racism accusation, while pretending that the only other relevant comments are about bones through noses, or god-emperors of racism, whatever the hell they are. Finally, I don’t intend to go back through the thread and quote better, “non-poor” responses here, but I think if you do, you will surely find some. There’s some side discussion about whether or not Naomi Osaka was caricatured in a racist manner (general consensus: no) and whether the Tyron Woodley test makes certain people feel uncomfortable (general consensus: yes). Nothing specific or credible disputing the racism accusation in question except perhaps the claim that it’s impossible to caricature people with thick lips. (That’s specific argument, though not a credible one.) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/123 "2018-09-12T23:14:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There’s some side discussion about whether or not Naomi Osaka was caricatured in a racist manner (general consensus: no) and whether the Tyron Woodley test makes certain people feel uncomfortable (general consensus: yes). Nothing specific or credible disputing the racism accusation in question except perhaps the claim that it’s impossible to caricature people with thick lips. (That’s specific argument, though not a credible one.) In keeping with my statement, I’ve already said where I stand on Osaka (post #4). I read and responded to the first Tyron Woodley post, found it ridiculous, and haven’t read anything else regarding it. Arguments have been made disputing the racism. I think many are credible, and you do not. Fair enough, but we have nothing more to discuss about that then, do we? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/124 "2018-09-12T23:15:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To make a caricature, you take some feature of the subject that’s outside of the norm, and you draw it as even more outside the norm. If someone has a nose that’s bigger than average, you make it a lot bigger than average. If someone has an unusually short neck, then you make it even shorter, and so on. > > But this artist seems to have decided that the way in which Williams’ appearance is outside of the norm is that she has West African ancestry, and so exaggerated the traits associated (correctly or incorrectly) with that ancestry. The underlying assumption is that the “norm” is necessarily white. And it fails as a caricature, because it doesn’t actually look like Williams specifically, as opposed to any other black woman. Yes, I think this is a perfect explanation of why that caricature feels racist. Is “large lips” a defining feature of Serena? She does not strike me as having unusually large lips for a black woman, no; nor even relative to most white women for that matter. So that’s a caricature of a generic stereotypical black woman, not Serena. The face bears no resemblance at all. The artist might argue that he exaggrated the mouth because of the “baby tantrum” aspect, but even if that’s the intent, the effect is a racist stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/125 "2018-09-12T23:18:07Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > In keeping with my statement, I’ve already said where I stand on Osaka (post #4). I read and responded to the first Tyron Woodley post, found it ridiculous, and haven’t read anything else regarding it. Arguments have been made disputing the racism. I think many are credible, and you do not. Fair enough, but we have nothing more to discuss then, do we? I certainly agree that nobody who is for some reason defending this obviously racist caricature will change their stated opinions due to argument on some dumb message board. Except for **Delayed Reflex** , who is apparently a very calm and reasonable person. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/126 "2018-09-12T23:24:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She is big, black, scary-looking, and has big lips and frizzy hair. Isn’t that a racist caricature? It was when she was depicted as throwing a tantrum. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > No. The cartoon I linked is an exaggerated portrait of Serena Williams. It includes her features and is recognizable as her. The cartoon in the OP is a depiction of a racial stereotype. It has discredited stereotyped features and is recognizable as an ignorant portrait of what was once called an African savage. > > None of this has anything to do with whether the cartoon depicts her throwing a tantrum. If the caricature I posted showed her in a negative light throwing a tantrum, and the one in the OP showed her standing and was intended to be a positive portrayal, the second one would still be racist. Honestly, I’m not getting it. The linked caricature being spoken of here as a “non-racist” version does NOT look any different to me, sans the obviously-the-point tantrum being thrown. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/127 "2018-09-12T23:29:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes, I think this is a perfect explanation of why that caricature feels racist. Is “large lips” a defining feature of Serena? She does not strike me as having unusually large lips for a black woman, no; nor even relative to most white women for that matter. So that’s a caricature of a generic stereotypical black woman, not Serena. The face bears no resemblance at all. > > The artist might argue that he exaggrated the mouth because of the “baby tantrum” aspect, but even if that’s the intent, the effect is a racist stereotype. Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/128 "2018-09-12T23:33:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense? If they don’t want to offend people, then yes, they should pay at least some attention to whether they’re creating content that seems likely to generate offense. What I’ve gleaned from this thread does not suggest to me that the creator of this work wanted to avoid offending. What publication did this appear in again? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/129 "2018-09-12T23:38:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If they don’t want to offend people, then yes, they should pay at least some attention to whether they’re creating content that seems likely to generate offense. Yeah, it’s a question of what audience reaction you’re going for. If you want the reaction to be _“ha, look at Serena Williams’ silly behavior”_ without being significantly diluted by _“geez, that caricature of Williams looks like a racist stereotype”_, then it’s a good idea to avoid stereotypically racist visual features in your drawing. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/130 "2018-09-12T23:41:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I certainly agree that nobody who is for some reason defending this obviously racist caricature will change their stated opinions due to argument on some dumb message board. > > Except for **Delayed Reflex** , who is apparently a very calm and reasonable person. In keeping with my previous statement, I am not going to continue with this discussion unless someone offers a _new_ argument as to why the cartoon may be described as racist. And why should I, when lots of people here are exactly as you say, who will never be convinced of anything, or if they are, will never admit it publicly. I wish there were more like me here who do that. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/131 "2018-09-12T23:43:17Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I wish there were more like me here who do that. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/132 "2018-09-12T23:44:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is it possible to caricature a black person without it being racist? > > Regards, > Shodan I’m not sure whether you’re being serious or sarcastic. In case it’s the former…Of course it is. Witness the overwhelming majority of political cartoons of Barack Obama during his presidency. Caricature exaggerates a subject’s most distinctive features. In Obama, that meant his ears. I guess if one sees all Black subjects as having the Jim Crow era stereotype of wide lips, enormous mouths, etc. regardless of the individual, than it’d probably be tough to discern racism in the Australian cartoon. The Australian cartoon exaggerates only two of Williams’ physical features: her lips and her hair, neither of which is her most distinctive feature. And her lips are enormously exaggerated, much like the images in Jim Crow era cartoons. Compare it to t[his](https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/serena-williams-crimefighter) caricature of Williams, where her facial shape and musculature are exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/133 "2018-09-12T23:50:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: > The real woman does in fact have large lips. Like Obama had big ears or Nixon heavy jowls. > It’s more offensive to try and avoid drawing them, since you seem to be suggesting that there is something wrong with having big lips. Actually, she does not, and they’re certainly not her most distinctive feature. Her facial shape and musculature are much more distinctive. And the Australian cartoon enormously exaggerates them, the way Jim Crow era cartoons did. The only way you know it’s supposed to be Williams is the distinctive outfit. Here again is t[he link](https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/serena-williams-crimefighter) I posted in my reply to Shodan. The difference between this cartoon and the Australian one is striking. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/134 "2018-09-13T00:05:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I’ll quote the posts for you: Which of those is negative? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/135 "2018-09-13T00:05:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense? I suppose if someone really did have the stereotypical features, then the cartoonist would be on dangerous ground with a caricature. But if he’s not a good enough artist to express himself without portraying a racist stereotype, the world does not owe him a solution to that problem. And again, that’s not applicable here. Serena’s defining features are not stereotypical. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/136 "2018-09-13T00:11:09Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Is it possible to draw a caricature of a woman with Williams’ features that isn’t racist? If so, how? Here’s how I answered when you asked that same question in the US Open thread: > [@2018 U.S. Open (tennis)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/164): > > No. You cannot draw caricatures of nonwhite people without it coming across very badly. Which is actually, surprise surprise, a double standard I agree with. Although maybe we should dispense with the double standard by creating a new social norm that caricature is generally seen as bad form, even with white people as subjects. > > It’s an appealing art form in some ways, and one that tells us something about human perception and psychology. But on the whole, it’s just not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/137 "2018-09-13T00:31:16Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > [This](https://www.greghalbert.com/serena-williams-caricature/) is a caricature of Serena Williams that was posted earlier in the thread both by me and by Buck Godot. It is not racist. The caricature posted in the OP is racist. There is no reason that the non-racist version could not be depicted crying, screaming and jumping up and down to make the point of the original cartoon without being racist. > > Is there a part of this position that you do not agree with? That still looks racist (or at least, racially cringey) to me. OTOH I don’t think the Tyron Woodley test is reasonable. I don’t believe black people are necessarily the arbiters of what’s racist, any more than women are the arbiters of what’s sexist (many of the latter, for instance, are getting it wrong as concerns the U.S. Open chair umpire). It’s sometimes easier to see these things clearly from outside the group most affected. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/138 "2018-09-13T00:34:22Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > ]This one of the Stones is fucking _fantastic_ and I hope I can find a print of it somewhere. 🙂 I’ve got a Voodoo Lounge tour program. I’ll see if it’s in there. Make you #1 deal! > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin. The Tennis Racquet. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/139 "2018-09-13T01:11:11Z")
nm. hold on. hit post by mistake… ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230/140 "2018-09-13T01:25:53Z")
Something occurred to me while looking at photos of Serena: [Serena Williams](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&biw=1324&bih=859&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=_p-ZW7LcA8--gge8j52wDw&q=serena+williams+cartoon&oq=serena+williams+cartoon&gs_l=img.3..35i39.63117.64339..64579...0.0..0.68.399.7......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0.efs94qRokqM#imgrc=gsTG_aw78BkZGM:) [Serena Williams shouting](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1324&bih=859&ei=zbiZW-SgNPKh_Qbn4p_ABA&q=serena+williams+shouting&oq=serena+williams+shouting&gs_l=img.3...4467.10214..10418...1.0..0.104.1633.24j1......3....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..0j35i39j0i24.sqqEnRzDZtk#imgrc=Viqz9PqcRNtamM:) [The cartoon again](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1324&bih=859&ei=45-ZW7KbGoLL_Qbv4JDIAw&q=serena+cartoon&oq=serena+cartoon&gs_l=img.3..35i39.740.2762..3610...0.0..1.112.937.13j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..0.RSubv9lf8mk#imgrc=LBjZWLgCdBA4UM:) It is undeniable that her lips as drawn in the cartoon are larger than they are in real life when she isn’t shouting. I don’t think the lips as drawn in the cartoon are exaggerated to a racist extent when compared with the first image. However, if it happened that the artist drew her accurately while shouting and thought, no, that’s not racist or offensive enough, let me make her lips bigger, than that would certainly be evidence of racism. As I can’t know that, I draw no inferences from these pictures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cartoon-racist-tennis/821230.md?page=8)