Is this cartoon racist (Tennis).

[Gyrate]

@GoPostie

Does it?

In my view, it does. And I cited Kimstu’s post which provides more details of why my view is that.

Educated us.

It’s already been discussed further up in this thread. For more information, please reread.

[you_with_the_face]

I just looked at the cartoon again. Why is the referee asking the Osaka character “Can’t you just let her win?” The whole controversy concerns his violation calls and whether they were fair, but the artist is choosing to frame this as Serena acting like a loud, ugly baby because she was losing to a better player. Someone not aware of the situation could look at the cartoon and think Serena has a reputation for being a sore loser. Does she?

[SlackerInc]

Seriously, why would it be so unthinkable to simply say we should not in polite society tolerate caricatures because they are too likely to be offensive in some way?

ETA:

@you_with_the_face

I just looked at the cartoon again. Why is the referee asking the Osaka character “Can’t you just let her win?” The whole controversy concerns his violation calls and whether they were fair, but the artist is choosing to frame this as Serena acting like a loud, ugly baby because she was losing to a better player. Someone not aware of the situation could look at the cartoon and think Serena has a reputation for being a sore loser. Does she?

Absolutely she does. On Slate’s Hang Up and Listen sports podcast, even her most ardent defender acknowledged this.

[SlackerInc]

@SlackerInc

Absolutely she does. On Slate’s Hang Up and Listen sports podcast, even her most ardent defender acknowledged this.

Cite:

Serena Williams Is a Champion, a Goddess, and a Flawed Human Being

Thomas: I think you’re right that it’s important to place this into the proper context. I think it does matter that Ramos has a history of calling things by the book, because sexism is a pretty serious charge. And I think that this is an umpire who has called a lot of ticky-tack stuff on men, and so maybe he doesn’t deserve to be so quickly labeled as a sexist.

I know that there was this context of Serena having these confrontations with umpires. And we all know that Serena is a really sore loser. This is not a controversial thing. I mean, she has been a gracious loser, and she is becoming increasingly gracious in the past couple years, but this is a woman who absolutely hates to lose, and that is part of her fire and part of what has made her so great.

But I found myself reaching for a different context. There is a code in tennis that you are supposed to be a good, you know, sportsman. And it matters that the word is sportsman. This is a sport with a history of gentility, which has its roots in a kind of Victorian ethos. And Serena does not fit into that code.

And so, I found myself hearing or remembering not the instances of her threatening to shove a ball down an official’s throat and being really angry in that fierce way that she can be. What I found myself hearing were the slights that she’s heard that are attacks on her, and how she has to carry that all the time, and how that particular attack just made her snap. A lot of people got really upset that she invoked her daughter, saying that her daughter had nothing to do with this, and she was trying to get pity points—

Levin: To be transparent, I mentioned that in my piece. I don’t think I was outraged by it, but I thought that that was an odd thing to mention in that moment.

Thomas: To me, it totally made sense, because I have a young daughter. And to me, the attack on her integrity really mattered because she was saying, “You know what? I am not a bad person here. And I have been constantly labeled as this monster, or this person who doesn’t deserve what she gets, or is a selfish person and an arrogant person.” This racialized, sexualized stuff that people say about her. And that’s why it didn’t feel egregious to me in the same way that it clearly felt to a lot of people.

Emphasis mine. I quoted that much context to show that the woman saying this is far from anti-Serena.

[GoPostie]

@Gyrate

In my view, it does.

Ahh.

[Mumberthax]

You know what I think would be better? Instead of asking ourselves whether or not something is racist, we should prolly ask members of the group in question - in this case, Black women.

What would the average Black woman say about this cartoon, assuming she’s both reasonably intelligent and in possession of all relevant facts? Since I am neither Black nor a woman (unless my identifying as such counts? :D) I really cannot say one way or the other.

So, let’s let the community of Black women decide this one. I’m staying out, and revoking my previous opinion on this topic. I don’t see anything racist, but maybe that’s the privilege talking.

[E-DUB]

@Sloe_Moe

Sadly, I had a hard time deciding that Obama’s drawing was not very flattering but not racist either. Maybe the artist took greater care, unlike the very rudimentary style used for Serena. I wouldn’t say it’s easy, especially for Obama. The most “African” rendering of him I can find is this.

This rendering of Obama is full of flattery.

While not racist that is wrong on so many other levels. Ritual consumption of the leader is best left to the religious.

[Ashtura]

@SlackerInc

Seriously, why would it be so unthinkable to simply say we should not in polite society tolerate caricatures because they are too likely to be offensive in some way?

Yes. It is too much to ask. It violates freedom of expression and imo freedom of speech. There is no freedom from being offended.

I plunked down some money for a caricature. I found the end result unflattering and offensive and the end result is I have not gotten a caricature since, from anybody. The action of one artist literally caused me to boycott getting caricatures done from* any* other artist. Not for me, my kids, or anybody in my family. I have however, come to realize that it is not the job of an artist to further a “polite society.”

And if anybody doesn’t like this depiction of Serena Williams, they are more than welcome to avoid any more of this guy’s work. If many people do that and readership goes down, then this artist will have “gotten what he deserves”. That is the way it should be handled.

[MrDibble]

@Ashtura

Yes. It is too much to ask. It violates freedom of expression and imo freedom of speech.

I don’t see any violation - I see exercise of free speech - a bunch of people saying “Dude, that’s fucking racist”

Freedom of Speech Doesn’t Mean Freedom from Consequences

[Novelty_Bobble]

@SlackerInc

Seriously, why would it be so unthinkable to simply say we should not in polite society tolerate caricatures because they are too likely to be offensive in some way?.

That’s the train of thought that takes you to a load of murdered french Journalists. Fuck that shit right there. I’m not a fan of slippery slopes but you cannot seriously think that is a good path to take?

There is no right in society, and should not be any right, to live unoffended. The whole *point *of the cartoon was to offend Serena Williams, her undeserved righteous indignation, sense of entitlement and toddleresque tantrum.

Good, that’s exactly what the medium is for. I’d expect the same to be done for anyone who behaves in a crappy way.

[Shodan]

@MrDibble

Could you tell me why, exactly, I’m supposed to keep running alongside as you move these posts? TIA.

I am trying to determine what the goalposts are. You said -

@MrDibble

White cartoonists can freely lampoon black people to the same standards as white people just as soon as anti-black racism is over. Not before.

So apparently the standards are different for black people than they are for white people. So what exactly is the standard?

Do you agree with SpoilerVirgin that the caricature of Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair is not racist, whereas the cartoon depicting Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair pitching a tantrum is racist? What is the difference, apart from the tantrum?

Regards,
Shodan

[MrDibble]

@Shodan

I am trying to determine what the goalposts are.

Sure, dude. Just Asking Questions. This is not my first trip to the sealion colony.

And that wasn’t the post I was replying to, where the goalposts moved from “show me a caricature” to “show me a negative caricature”. Nice deflection.

You said -So apparently the standards are different for black people than they are for white people.

Naah, it’s exactly the same standard. “Punch up, not down” is the same for both.

Oh, look at that, White people don’t have anyone to punch up at (well, White men don’t, at any rate). My heart bleeds for them.

Do you agree with SpoilerVirgin that the caricature of Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair is not racist, whereas the cartoon depicting Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair pitching a tantrum is racist?

Do you agree that you should stop beating your wife?

[Ashtura]

@MrDibble

I don’t see any violation - I see exercise of free speech - a bunch of people saying “Dude, that’s fucking racist”

Freedom of Speech Doesn’t Mean Freedom from Consequences

I think suggesting society must be polite and never offend anyone has a chilling effect on freedom of expression and speech. Yes, violating freedoms is the wrong word. I just don’t think it’s a artists job to worry about offending people. I don’t think it was Andres Serrano’s job to worry about offending people by taking a picture of Christ in a glass of piss, even if I personally find it in poor taste with little to no redeeming value. And sure he knew that was going to offend vast swaths of people, even though he claims that was not his intent.

[MrDibble]

@Ashtura

I think suggesting society must be polite and never offend anyone has a chilling effect on freedom of expression and speech.

Good thing no-one’s suggested that, then.

I just don’t think it’s a artists job to worry about offending people.

I submit to you that newspaper editorial cartoons are not *quite *the same category of art as Piss Christ.

And I don’t think it’s the people’s job to worry about offending artists who don’t like getting called racist…

[Mr_Shine]

I’m not sure how attacking a winner of dozens of Grand Slam tennis tournaments who is worth nearly $1/4bn can possibly be considered “punching down” for any except the extreme upper crust of society. In any case the “don’t punch down” thing is stupid. People should be held to the same standards whether they are “down” or “up” from you.

The idea that only black women should be able to be arbiters of what is racist in this picture is also stupid, especially considering the ridiculous hair-trigger the word “racism” has nowadays, where virtually any negative opinion of a black person from a white person is guaranteed to get some people squawking “WACISMMMM!!!”

[Novelty_Bobble]

@MrDibble

I submit to you that newspaper editorial cartoons are not *quite *the same category of art as Piss Christ.

how so? on what grounds do you see fit to judge that?

I can think of many caricaturists and cartoon artists that I hold in greater esteem than the creator of “piss christ”

[MrDibble]

@Mr_Shine

I’m not sure how attacking a winner of dozens of Grand Slam tennis tournaments who is worth nearly $1/4bn can possibly be considered “punching down” for any except the extreme upper crust of society.

I can see you’re not sure.

People should be held to the same standards whether they are “down” or “up” from you.

Tell that to the people at the top.

virtually any negative opinion of a black person from a white person is guaranteed to get some people squawking “WACISMMMM!!!”

Aah, I was *wondering *when the accusations of shrieking would start. “Squawking” is close enough…looks like the Tone Police are here to bust this debate up by judicious application of argumentum ad iram, people.

[SpoilerVirgin]

@Shodan

Do you agree with SpoilerVirgin that the caricature of Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair is not racist, whereas the cartoon depicting Serena Williams as a large, scary-looking angry black woman with big lips and frizzy hair pitching a tantrum is racist? What is the difference, apart from the tantrum?

I posted it earlier, but perhaps you missed my post:

The discredited features are primarily the topknot, with no hair at all above her ears, the shape and structure of the mouth, and the foreshortened pose, all of which are recognizable as offensive African stereotypes, and none of which are recognizable as Serena Williams.

Incidentally, what do all of these things that are not shown in the non-racist caricature have in common? They are all reminiscent of a monkey, which is what the racist depiction of Africans is trying to get at - to show them as not really human.

You know, I should make one other point. I am a fierce defender of freedom of speech and the press, and in particular of editorial cartooning. I believe that cartoons should not be censored either by the government or by newspaper editors. The artist had every right to draw this cartoon, and the newspaper to publish it. But it is still overtly racist, and we the worldwide audience have every right to call it out for what it is.

[MrDibble]

@Novelty_Bobble

how so? on what grounds do you see fit to judge that?

On the grounds that one is individual expression, the other, corporate speech.

[Mumberthax]

@Mr_Shine

I’m not sure how attacking a winner of dozens of Grand Slam tennis tournaments who is worth nearly $1/4bn can possibly be considered “punching down” for any except the extreme upper crust of society. In any case the “don’t punch down” thing is stupid. People should be held to the same standards whether they are “down” or “up” from you.

The idea that only black women should be able to be arbiters of what is racist in this picture is also stupid, especially considering the ridiculous hair-trigger the word “racism” has nowadays, where virtually any negative opinion of a black person from a white person is guaranteed to get some people squawking “WACISMMMM!!!”

Now, tell me…who are those people ‘squawking WACISMMMM!!!’? No need to name names, but I do want to know. Are we talking about trustafarian hipsters in Brooklyn, or are we talking about the average J. Random Minority? To put it a different way - this cartoon is about a Black woman. This means that, if there’s any racism here, it’d be implicitly aimed at all Black women. Does this sound right to you? If it does, then wouldn’t that only Black women can have any authority on the matter?

Just some dyspeptic thoughts on a rainy Thursday afternoon.