# Is this cheating?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [March 12, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570 "2014-03-12T22:58:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/21 "2014-03-13T02:24:38Z")
> [@Jake\_Jones](#):
>
> I’m not an academic, but my assumption from context here is that a “test bank” is a _ **private** _ collection of objective questions maintained by a Uni Dept. or wider group of professors within an academic field. This, I have have no problem with and please correct me if my assumption is wrong. It may be kind of lazy, but I find no fault with that kind of laziness.
>
> It’s an entirely different thing from ripping objective questions verbatim from a published study guide that is meant to accompany a published textbook that is primary course material. I think it factually is plagiarism, but regardless of your opinion on that, a **re you really going to defend a fellow prof who does this, presents that test as “open book” and finally lectures students who used that material as lacking integrity**?
>
> I think there’s a giant disconnect here and if _ **anyone** _ is lacking integrity in this situation, the professor is the most likely candidate.
See bolded language.
If you read all my posts you’ll see in each case I keep saying that prof has no leg to stand on in calling out cheating. I’ve said it each time. I couldn’t have been more clear. I truly don’t know how you got the idea I was defending this professor for calling out the students.
I was simply commenting on the idea of using test banks or other prepared test questions as _automatically_ lazy and providing some examples of when it is not.
[QUOTE=IvoryTowerDenizen]
When I give open book or take home exams I specify what can and cannot be used. If the study guide was not excluded, i **t’s not cheating**. Even if the prof didn’t intend the students to use the guide, it doesn’t matter. It might invalidate the test, **but it isn’t cheating**.
I have no idea if this particular prof is lazy or not. **I also said he is completely wrong to accuse the students of cheating**. What I am saying is that using questions from other sources (such as test banks) is not automatically lazy.
That is unfortunate. **Unless there is some missing info, he’s wrong**.
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@Jake\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Jones)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/22 "2014-03-13T03:04:58Z")
You keep cherry picking the pieces of my responses that are convenient for you to defend. Let’s narrow the scope to the accusation of professorial laziness, that you objected to, and was the basis for my objection to your objection.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s an entirely different thing from ripping objective questions verbatim from a published study guide that is meant to accompany a published textbook that is primary course material.
Allegations of plagiarism aside (not dismissed, because I think they’re valid, but aside) do you stand by your original statement that this is not, at bare minimum, abject laziness by the professor in question?
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### Author:  [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/23 "2014-03-13T03:08:11Z")
Another professor chiming in- I don’t think this was cheating. The prof said it was open book and didn’t ban any sources. I do wonder if the students knew the study guide questions would be on the test or if they just got lucky. It doesn’t change my conclusion, just makes me curious about the prof’s classroom management.
As for pulling questions from a study guide, those questions are often also in a test bank provided to professors by the textbook manufacturer. These test banks are explicitly designed to allow profs to assemble tests by pulling questions directly from the test bank. Like IvoryTowerDenizen, I will use test bank questions if they are good questions or I’ll tweak them a bit to make them original to the current test (and irritate the fraternities that keep test banks of their own). But I always supplement these questions with higher level questions that are not from a commercial test bank. I may have written them or I may borrow them from a colleague with permission.
If you haven’t ever written a test, it’s easy to underestimate just how hard it is to write good questions _and_ make cheating difficult. A really good question has a time limit because old tests will be circulating. So even if you are testing on the same topics every semester, you have to update the tests every time.
It sounds like this professor is just over the whole process. Pulling questions from a study guide available to students is pretty desperate. Making it open book sounds like he didn’t want to put up with any complaining. It’s too easy to ignore students who complain about an open book multiple choice exam. His blaming the class for “cheating” is more proof that he got caught phoning it in.
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### Author:  [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/24 "2014-03-13T03:15:41Z")
> [@Jake\_Jones](#):
>
> You keep cherry picking the pieces of my responses that are convenient for you to defend. Let’s narrow the scope to the accusation of professorial laziness, that you objected to, and was the basis for my objection to your objection.
> Allegations of plagiarism aside (not dismissed, because I think they’re valid, but aside) do you stand by your original statement that this is not, at bare minimum, abject laziness by the professor in question?
As I said before, I don’t have enough information because I have no clue what this study guide was. I was not defending or commenting on this professor, specifically. It could be, it might not be.
For example, I’ve worked with colleagues teaching other sections of the same course in development of materials, such as study guides. One prof uploads the materials to a class website, another won’t. We all share the materials, but a few semesters later a student googles the topic, finds the guides and uses it. One prof has stopped giving it out, so grabs some questions off of it and poof, the same questions appear. Stuff like this happens. This is my field, and after over decade of teaching believe me, weird stuff happens.
If he indeed grabbed some questions from a publisher study guide, for an open book test, well that’s just stupid. Depending on the agreement with the publisher it may or may not be plagiarism. Is it lazy, maybe, but without seeing the test who knows.
You interpreted an awful lot about this specific situation from my simple statement about the use of prepared test materials in general. And despite your assertion of cherry picking, I was responding to the fact that you accused me of defending this guy when I was speaking generically.
This has become so tedious. I’m sympathetic to the OP, not defending the prof, and think she was mistreated, FFS. I’m done defending a perfectly reasonable position. You’re free to disagree, but I’m done defending against strawmen.
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### Author:  [@Jake\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Jones)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/25 "2014-03-13T04:15:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#):
>
> You interpreted an awful lot about this specific situation from my simple statement about the use of prepared test materials in general.
I interpreted what I did about this specific situation, which is the subject of the thread. When you said “I disagree with laziness, though” I think the onus was on you to qualify that as a general statement and not on me to qualify my statements as relevant only to the subject at hand. I even went further and said that I don’t object to _ **private** _ test bank questions being used. If an obvious number of students had access to more than half of the the answers to a 15 question objective test, I don’t think I’m out of line calling the professor who assembled that test lazy.
> [@](#):
>
> I was responding to the fact that you accused me of defending this guy when I was speaking generically.
Speaking generically and without qualification in a thread about a specific situation can sometimes lead to misunderstanding. You’re out of line in accusing me of building a stawman. You’re also out of line in addressing my obviously ironic statement that “a good answer is a good answer” in response to “a good question is a good question” as sincere. But forgive me for being tedious.
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#):
>
> Another professor chiming in…
>
> It sounds like this professor is just over the whole process. Pulling questions from a study guide available to students is pretty desperate. Making it open book sounds like he didn’t want to put up with any complaining. It’s too easy to ignore students who complain about an open book multiple choice exam. His blaming the class for “cheating” is more proof that he got caught phoning it in.
That is exactly the impression that I have of the situation. Lazy professor with no fucks left to give.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/26 "2014-03-13T14:28:45Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#):
>
> Definitely not cheating if the materials were allowed.
>
> the professor was lazy, and trying to cover up his rather obvious laziness by rescinding the test.
+1
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/27 "2014-03-13T14:41:27Z")
I can’t see how this was cheating in any way.
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### Author:  [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/28 "2014-03-13T15:01:56Z")
Not cheating, open book. Apparently any book.
Teacher screwed up, then blamed the students. Not very mature or professional.
He should have just owned his mistake and tossed the test, and moved on.
Hoping the story reaches the department head or dean.
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### Author:  [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/29 "2014-03-13T15:14:06Z")
Every test I’ve ever taken where we were allowed to use any resources besides our own brains, it’s been made painfully, explicitly clear what resources we were and were not allowed to use. _Especially_ when it comes to anything that’s not the specific textbook for that course, such as notes or published study guides, and the instructor or proctors circulated through the room before and during the test to make sure all resources being used fit the guidelines. If your resources fit the guidelines, you weren’t cheating. If they didn’t, you were.
So I guess it really all boils down to what, exactly, your instructions and guidelines were. Were you told to only use your books? Just the textbook and one sheet of notes? (That was the guideline for one of my chemistry classes.) Anything you happened to have on you that day?
It’s hard to make an open-book exam “fair.” If you allow textbooks, everyone has the same resources, but you’ve taken away some of the advantage of studying harder and given the more mediocre students a boost. If you allow textbooks plus notes, you regain the advantages of diligence, but now students have unequal resources to work with. It’s messy, ya know?
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/30 "2014-03-13T15:19:15Z")
How would the students with the study guide have known those questions would be on the exam? Magic?
That’s just dumb. Not cheating in the least.
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### Author:  [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/31 "2014-03-13T15:36:39Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> OK, I’ve never heard of an open book test that was multiple choice. Every time I’ve had an open book test, it was for short essay-type questions that required you to share your thought processes. . . .
I don’t remember an open book/multiple choice test for a class, but the old Engineer in Training (EIT) certification test was open book/multiple choice. It was also eight hours long. And no programable calculators. I imagine that a lot of certification test still are OB/MC. I’d also expect a class OB/MC test to be formula heavy, with choices available for common mistakes.
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### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/32 "2014-03-13T16:04:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> BTW, we are currently getting a lecture on how we don’t have any integrity and some of us took shortcuts.
Irony, thy name is professor.
Stranger
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/33 "2014-03-13T16:07:58Z")
Is the study guide part of the course materials? Even if it isn’t, the students were clearly not cheating. However, if it wasn’t, then I’d say the people complaining are justified. Either way, the professor is a fucking idiot.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/34 "2014-03-13T16:08:22Z")
I wonder if the professor would appreciate a mock trial in which this was at issue.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/35 "2014-03-13T17:24:56Z")
The only way this is cheating is if, through nefarious means, the students discovered that questions would be pulled from a particular source, and procured that source specifically to give them quick and easy answers.
Even then, it’s a bit of a stretch.
Questions for open book tests should not be set up so that having the “right” book means you can copy the answers verbatim. At least, not for half the questions!
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/36 "2014-03-13T17:30:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> Irony, thy name is professor.
You ain’t kiddin’.
Up until the speech, I was mildly annoyed but no big deal.
After the speech, I was livid.
And after one of my classmates asked how it could possibly be cheating given the parameters of the test, and he said that we’d have to ask the administration because he didn’t give it that label, they did, and all he had to say about it was how lazy some of us were and how we lacked integrity and how the evildoers among us would get our comeuppance, well, jsgoddess wanted to choke a bitch.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/37 "2014-03-13T17:49:52Z")
Was the professor cheating by using ready-made questions from a study guide instead of writing them on his own? Is that the question? 'Cos I think “yes.”
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### Author:  [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/38 "2014-03-13T18:22:39Z")
Yeah, I can’t get over the fact the professor “cheated” himself in grabbing questions from a study sheet he didn’t make. I’d wonder if that would fall under the school’s plagiarism policy… 😉
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/39 "2014-03-13T19:03:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> BTW, we are currently getting a lecture on how we don’t have any integrity and some of us took shortcuts.
The professor is failing in his professional responsibility to bring this matter of egregious academic dishonesty to the attention of the dean of his school. Multiple students cheating in a single test is scandalous, and such academic dishonesty regularly finds its way to the evening news outlets. As much as we complain about cheating, a formal academic hearing should have been conducted to investigate the matter, and consequences - suspensions, expulsions - should have been meted out to those found guilty.
:eek: Wait, that doesn’t sound right.
FTR, I don’t believe this was cheating at all - and the fact that the professor did not report this incident to his superiors tells you how he _really_ feels about it.
If you want to rock the boat, you can ask, _in class,_ if he has referred the matter to the administration in accordance with his professional obligation.
Want to cause more mayhem? Go to the dean directly and tell him that the professor has accused people in the class of cheating but has not referred the matter for official investigation.
If you _really_ want to rock the boat, you can go to the dean and complain that the prof has, without foundation, accused you (the class) of cheating and insulted you by suggesting you are lazy have no integrity. When you explain to the dean that nobody broke _any_ of the rules that the teacher laid out before the test and that you feel you are being punished (by having a good test score removed from your tally) for a crime that didn’t happen, the professor will have some explaining to do.
The students who complained about other people having brought information into the classroom that came from sources other than the textbook or the professor’s lectures are whiny, unresourceful assholes. There’s no rule that says you can’t go to the library, bookstore, or internet on your own time to learn as much as you can about the subject. The students who _did_ root around for extracurricular information deserve high marks for exhibiting the kind of resourcefulness that will serve them well after they graduate.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-cheating/683570/40 "2014-03-13T19:18:57Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> FTR, I don’t believe this was cheating at all - and the fact that the professor did not report this incident to his superiors tells you how he _really_ feels about it.
The administration knows about it. That’s where the complaining students complained to. Sorry for any confusion.
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