# Is this dirty? (female symbol with a fist in it) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334 "2010-01-09T23:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/41 "2010-01-11T00:27:21Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > “[bras d’honneur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras_d%27honneur)” Conpicuously missing from the “Cultural References” section of that article: [http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/too\_old.jpg](http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/too_old.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/42 "2010-01-11T00:39:41Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > People…the writer of _Daria_ was an editor for National Lampoon and _Beavis and Butthead_ and a writer for _Married with Children_. There is absolutely an intended sexual reference there, it’s an MTV program, that’s what they do. It’s absurd to think that it’s an accident, comedy is not happenstance, it’s purposely crafted in explicit detail. The fact that it’s somewhat obscure and subtle enough to fly under the censors’ radars is entirely the point. Sorry, I don’t see it. It’s a well-established feminism symbol. I guess I don’t see how interpreting it as some sort of sexual symbol adds to the comedy in the scene. Is there any context in there where there’s a wink to the fisting meaning? Because I don’t hear it or see it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/43 "2010-01-11T01:12:40Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Sure, but this is _Daria_ we’re talking about, and the more insular and “in” the joke, the better. The writers would put things in that the general public, the censors and the viewers would not get just for the joy of putting one over on everyone. Perhaps so, but as I already said, if there’s a joke there at all then a reference to the bras d’honneur/“Up yours!” gesture makes a lot more sense in context than a reference to lesbian fisting. Either meaning would be a “naughty” reference that would go over the heads of many viewers and would likely be missed by the censors, but only the former would have anything to do with the rest of the scene. I don’t see how a “Ha, fisting!” sight gag adds anything here. If Jane and Daria had been talking about sex or speculating about their teacher’s personal life then maybe that would have been funny, but they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/44 "2010-01-11T01:53:27Z")
Not intended as sexual innuendo in the show, even completely taking into account the authorship, because as mentioned before _ **the symbol already existed decades earlier as a feminist protest emblem** _. It borrows from the Black Power sign; if the original meaning is giving The Man an “up yours”, it loses a sexual connotation and becomes just a gesture of defiance. Considering the whole scope of Daria, one of the _least_ salaciously-inclined shows on MTV(\*), and specially how _the specific Ms. Barch character_ was written through the series’ run, putting that sign in the picture was much more likely to be a reference to the sign as a symbol of \*misguided radicalism _– as in, “hey, look, she still carries on like it’s 1970”. Remember, the picketing teachers even asked Trent to write them a protest song. (_) in the sense not of being 100% sanitized, but of it not being, like Beav&Butt or RealWorld, all about “huhuhuhuhuh, look, look, look, we got away with something”, but instead normally being casual about it when some reference was made (e.g. Barch and O’Neill’s interactions). In fact, there was self-awareness that the star characters were the opposite of the archetype of MTV’s target audience; in the very last onscreen appearance of Daria and Jane in a first-run show, in the bumper for the finale credits, the dialogue is: (Daria) “Now we’ve got to move on and make room for something that better fits MTV’s vision of its schedule.” (Jane) "You know, like: “MTV Presents: ‘Teenagers Talking About Sex… During Sex!’” ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/45 "2010-01-11T02:11:31Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Not intended as sexual innuendo in the show, even completely taking into account the authorship, because as mentioned before _ **the symbol already existed decades earlier as a feminist protest emblem** _. It borrows from the Black Power sign; if the original meaning is giving The Man an “up yours”, it loses a sexual connotation and becomes just a gesture of defiance. Let me say this slowly: _No one is claiming the symbol was invented for the show_. They were taking a known feminist symbol and parodying it. The entire show is a parody of feminism. Feminism in and of itself is loaded with sexual dynamics, making associations between sex and symbolism is not a new thing. This scene was probably passed around between 100 writers, editors and animators, mostly men, and since a sizable portion of those participating in this thread see the joke I promise you that the professional entertainers were aware of the possible interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/46 "2010-01-11T03:07:42Z")
Assuming that the circle in the female (Venus) symbol automatically represents a vagina seems a little odd in light of the fact that the male (Mars) symbol has an identical circle. If you show a Mars-symbol with something in the circle, like [this dot](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://diskdoodle.com/images/products/Man%2520Symbol.gif&imgrefurl=http://diskdoodle.com/cart/product_all.cfm&usg=__6F4j0S-nqzOmbjcBtGEDU575u-4=&h=600&w=600&sz=23&hl=en&start=167&um=1&tbnid=qZi_ktd1vgN-fM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522male%2Bsymbol%2522%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN%26start%3D162%26um%3D1) or [this set of concentric rings](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iA1kiLXXd5A/Re1Oo_IDckI/AAAAAAAAALM/PkbJh3DftBs/s400/male_symbol_by_aquachild.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elvina33.blogspot.com/2007/03/men-are-just-happier-people.html&usg=__PUT8Y3LoNoDfsqOGCuMQqxZewGo=&h=300&w=300&sz=12&hl=en&start=52&um=1&tbnid=IHHP33hYjmIYlM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522male%2Bsymbol%2522%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN%26start%3D36%26um%3D1), is that automatically a _double-entendre_ about anal penetration of men? I don’t think we always have to interpret every circle as necessarily symbolizing a bodily orifice. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/47 "2010-01-11T03:57:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Assuming that the circle in the female (Venus) symbol automatically represents a vagina seems a little odd in light of the fact that the male (Mars) symbol has an identical circle. > > If you show a Mars-symbol with something in the circle, like [this dot](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://diskdoodle.com/images/products/Man%2520Symbol.gif&imgrefurl=http://diskdoodle.com/cart/product_all.cfm&usg=__6F4j0S-nqzOmbjcBtGEDU575u-4=&h=600&w=600&sz=23&hl=en&start=167&um=1&tbnid=qZi_ktd1vgN-fM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522male%2Bsymbol%2522%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN%26start%3D162%26um%3D1) or [this set of concentric rings](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iA1kiLXXd5A/Re1Oo_IDckI/AAAAAAAAALM/PkbJh3DftBs/s400/male_symbol_by_aquachild.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elvina33.blogspot.com/2007/03/men-are-just-happier-people.html&usg=__PUT8Y3LoNoDfsqOGCuMQqxZewGo=&h=300&w=300&sz=12&hl=en&start=52&um=1&tbnid=IHHP33hYjmIYlM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522male%2Bsymbol%2522%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN%26start%3D36%26um%3D1), is that automatically a _double-entendre_ about anal penetration of men? Great, now you’ve got me wondering what sort of kinky message [The Who](http://www.thewho.com/) were trying to send with their logo! ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/48 "2010-01-11T05:29:12Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Great, now you’ve got me wondering what sort of kinky message [The Who](http://www.thewho.com/) were trying to send with their logo! Talkin’ 'bout my penetration? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/49 "2010-01-11T05:46:01Z")
> [@LunarPlexus](#): > > Talkin’ 'bout my penetration? I guess they really were up for it “Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere”. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/50 "2010-01-11T06:13:40Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > People…the writer of _Daria_ was an editor for National Lampoon and _Beavis and Butthead_ and a writer for _Married with Children_. There is absolutely an intended sexual reference there, it’s an MTV program, that’s what they do. It’s absurd to think that it’s an accident, comedy is not happenstance, it’s purposely crafted in explicit detail. The fact that it’s somewhat obscure and subtle enough to fly under the censors’ radars is entirely the point. I’m still not buying it. Unless you have a quote from someone involved stating it was intentional. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Not intended as sexual innuendo in the show, even completely taking into account the authorship, because as mentioned before _ **the symbol already existed decades earlier as a feminist protest emblem** _. It borrows from the Black Power sign; if the original meaning is giving The Man an “up yours”, it loses a sexual connotation and becomes just a gesture of defiance. > > Considering the whole scope of Daria, one of the _least_ salaciously-inclined shows on MTV(\*), and specially how _the specific Ms. Barch character_ was written through the series’ run, putting that sign in the picture was much more likely to be a reference to the sign as a symbol of \*misguided radicalism \*-- as in, “hey, look, she still carries on like it’s 1970”. Remember, the picketing teachers even asked Trent to write them a protest song. I have to agree with this. Now I suppose someone involved with the show may have noticed that potential entendre at some point, but I don’t believe that that had any influence on why that particular symbol was picked. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/51 "2010-01-11T08:52:29Z")
_Feminist_ is an anagram of ‘I fist men’. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/52 "2010-01-11T09:35:38Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Conpicuously missing from the “Cultural References” section of that article: > > [http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/too\_old.jpg](http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/too_old.jpg) So edit it already! ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334/53 "2010-01-12T19:25:36Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I promise you that the professional entertainers were aware of the possible interpretation. And upon what are you basing your certainty here? A whole lot of assuming you couldn’t possibly be wrong, it looks like. And when you make conclusions based primarily upon the idea that you have to be right instead of actual reasons, you’re most likely just plain wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-dirty-female-symbol-with-a-fist-in-it/524334.md?page=2)