# Is this fantastically racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 22, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285 "2020-05-22T13:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/1 "2020-05-22T13:54:46Z")
You don’t have to be some sort of white wizard to see that hobbits have a higher EQ than either dwarves or men. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/2 "2020-05-22T14:21:04Z")
EQ = IQ? If so, I would probably argue the opposite. Which doesn’t change your argument, I don’t think. No, I don’t think it’s racists to have fictional species that differ in mental attributes. Unless, of course, they are intended to be analogous to different groups of real world people. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/3 "2020-05-22T14:59:47Z")
It’s not nearly as clever as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Noelq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noelq/32/16438_2.png) [@Noelq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noelq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/4 "2020-05-22T15:53:41Z")
History is written by the victors. The Hobbits won the war of the rings. Therefore, they get to look the smartest. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/5 "2020-05-22T16:19:13Z")
In all honesty, there are speculative fiction books I can’t read because they are so “X race is like Y”; at best, it’s lazy writing. At worst, a fig leaf for normalizing racism. I wouldn’t put LOTR in that category, because while there is a lot of broad stereotyping, the characters feel like characters, not like incarnations of a stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/6 "2020-05-22T16:26:25Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > In all honesty, there are speculative fiction books I can’t read because they are so “X race is like Y”; at best, it’s lazy writing. At worst, a fig leaf for normalizing racism. I wouldn’t put LOTR in that category, because while there is a lot of broad stereotyping, the characters feel like characters, not like incarnations of a stereotype. Does that include the swarthy men of the south who fought for Sauron? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/7 "2020-05-22T16:37:21Z")
“EQ” means “emotional intelligence,” I believe. And, in my opinion, yes, Tolkien’s world does heavily incorporate the idea of “X race has Y attributes,” so it fully embraces what I consider racist notions. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/8 "2020-05-22T16:39:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > EQ = IQ? > > If so, I would probably argue the opposite. Which doesn’t change your argument, I don’t think. No, I don’t think it’s racists to have fictional species that differ in mental attributes. Unless, of course, they are intended to be analogous to different groups of real world people. Or emotional intelligence. Because Frodo and Sam had better resistance to the greed induced by the ring. In RPGs, this often translates to halflings having a higher constitution. > [@74westy](#): > > Does that include the swarthy men of the south who fought for Sauron? As I recall, after the ring was destroyed the orcs went mad, and eventually went extinct, because they’re an always evil race. The Haradrim and Dunlendings and all them surrendered peacefully, as they were not evil by nature. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/9 "2020-05-22T16:42:20Z")
And of course, don’t look for completely enlightened attitudes in a book written decades ago, but Tolkien hated Nazis before it was cool. > [@JRRT](#): > > 25 July 1938 > 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford > > Dear Sirs, > > Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride. > > Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung. > > I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and > > remain yours faithfully, > > J. R. R. Tolkien ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/10 "2020-05-22T16:53:22Z")
Are hobbits, dwarves, and men different races of the same species? Or are they different species? I’m a speciest. I think mosquitoes (at least adults) are evil bastards. I don’t hate snakes; I just think they’re better off sticking to their own kind. Bats are cool, but they carry dangerous cooties that can kill you. So stay away from them. I think racism is fundamentally wrong because it pits individuals of the same species (humans) against each other. But specism is fair game, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/11 "2020-05-22T17:25:32Z")
Re:Tolkien’s letter above…_That_ is how you properly tell someone to go fuck themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/12 "2020-05-22T17:38:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are hobbits, dwarves, and men different races of the same species? Or are they different species? Tolkien says (LoTR Prologue p. 2): > [@](#): > > It is plain indeed that inspite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Given that Dwarves are an exceptionally long-lived unique people specially formed by Aule in an act of creation separate from the origins of the other “speaking-peoples”, that’s quite a claim. And given that even Men and (literally immortal) Elves are demonstrably capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, I think it has to be inferred that Hobbits, Men, Dwarves and Elves are all at least theoretically what we would call the same species, in terms of reproductive potential. I don’t think it’s racist to acknowledge the differences between widely divergent fictional “races” that were deliberately written with clearly marked differences. Whether it’s intrinsically racist to write fictional “races” in such an essentializing way in the first place is a different question. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/13 "2020-05-22T17:51:12Z")
But now I’m wondering if the OP was asking instead about the expression “some kind of white wizard”. Yeah, there are arguably racist overtones in a historically white-supremacist culture to making the category “white” an indicator of some kind of general superiority, even if it’s expressed in symbolism (e.g., hat color) rather than skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/14 "2020-05-22T17:54:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are hobbits, dwarves, and men different races of the same species? Or are they different species? > > I’m a speciest. I think mosquitoes (at least adults) are evil bastards. I don’t hate snakes; I just think they’re better off sticking to their own kind. Bats are cool, but they carry dangerous cooties that can kill you. So stay away from them. > > I think racism is fundamentally wrong because it pits individuals of the same species (humans) against each other. But specism is fair game, IMHO. In LOTR: Hobbits are related to humans. Dwarves are pretty much convergent evolution. Elves too, though they can at least interbreed with humans, but including some strong technicalities that make it rare. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/15 "2020-05-22T17:55:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are hobbits, dwarves, and men different races of the same species? Or are they different species? I can’t find it right now, but I seem to recall someone here on the SDMB (?) pointing out recently that “race” can have more than one meaning. Whether you call them “races” or “species,” the humans, hobbits, dwarves, elves, orcs, etc. of Middle Earth are different in a more fundamental way than the different “races” of human beings in our reality. And this is hardly unique to Tolkien. **Lots** of fantasy and science fiction has characters of different races (or species) that have different characteristics based on their race (or species). That’s not inherently racist; but I’ve sometimes wondered if it could encourage racist attitudes in the “real world.” And what about stories of anthropomorohic animals, where certain animals are Good or Evil (or clever, or savage, or treacherous, or whatever) based on what species they are a member of—do such stories encourage us to think of different races or nationalities of people the same way? And what about the notion that different breeds of dogs are smarter, or more savage, or more neurotic, or more trainable, than others? They’re all the same species. If you think of different breeds of dogs as having different inherent qualities, isn’t it a short step to thinking of different “breeds” of humans the same way? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/16 "2020-05-22T18:03:48Z")
If these groups being discussed can’t readily reproduce with each other, then I’m going to deem them separate species. IMHO, it is OK to make generalizations at the species level and compare species to each other, as long as the generalizations and comparisons aren’t too broad or value-laden. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/17 "2020-05-22T18:05:00Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Does that include the swarthy men of the south who fought for Sauron? The Druedain were described as having brown to black skin, yet were vigorous opponents of first Morgoth and later Sauron. They were considered to be one of the Houses of the Edain, most noble of men. In addition, JRRT describes the First house of the Edain (descendants of Beor, such as Beren) as having skin ranging from “fair to swarthy”, in **The Peoples of Middle-earth** , “Of Dwarves and Men”, “The Atani and their Languages”. So it seems all skin hues of mortal folk could be found on both sides of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/18 "2020-05-22T18:35:00Z")
I seem to recall that Tolkien was later troubled by the implication in his earlier writings that goblins/orcs were irredeemably evil. Of course _none_ of the peoples of Middle Earth get a free pass: humans of course (and apparently Hobbits) are subject to original sin and thus fallible; elves are capable of flights of passion that lead them to grievous wrongdoing; dwarves can be stubborn, hidebound and prideful. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/19 "2020-05-22T18:47:31Z")
**Kimtsu** , I was thinking about Tolkien’s essentializing and not so much the ranking of wizards. OTOH, now that I’ve raised this spectre, it’s easier to see Gandalf’s distaste for Saruman the Many-Colored in a less flattering light. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/20 "2020-05-22T19:18:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But now I’m wondering if the OP was asking instead about the expression “some kind of white wizard”. Yeah, there are arguably racist overtones in a historically white-supremacist culture to making the category “white” an indicator of some kind of general superiority, even if it’s expressed in symbolism (e.g., hat color) rather than skin tone. “Power Rangers, are you ready?” “Green Power Ranger ready!” “Red Power Ranger ready!” “Whi… uh, look, can we just go?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285.md?page=2)