# Is this fantastically racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 22, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285 "2020-05-22T13:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/61 "2020-05-25T18:55:49Z")
Monstrous or fantastical creatures have often bee standins in stories for the wrong kind, or inferior kind, or other kind of people. The idea that moral or ethical sensibilities are dependent on superficial characteristics or typology is prongs from a deep well of racism and prejudice. Even we don’t call it directly racist, it’s very closely relate to racist notions. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/62 "2020-05-25T19:11:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, yes and no. In parts of _The Silmarillion_, at least, he was writing mythology; but elsewhere he was writing “history”—the history of Middle Earth. > > The reason he didn’t spend a lot of time working out biological plausibilities (as I understand it) is because he wasn’t particularly interested or trained in biology. He _did_ spend a lot of time working out _liguistic_ plausibilities. Even when he was writing “history”, I believe he was far more influenced by the Icelandic Sagas and perhaps the Kalevala or even the Iliad, than what is conventionally thought of as history. Heroic history, one could say. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/63 "2020-05-26T15:03:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No elf is ever described in Tolkien’s works as having dark skin, but then, I don’t think any elf was ever described as having light skin, either. He may well have implicitly assumed that they were light-skinned, since a person of his upbringing would have regarded light skin as the default, but he never made it explicit. I think he did describe individual Elves as being pale. Pretty sure Luthien was whiter-than-white, and I want to say Elrond and Galadriel as well? I seem to have misplaced all my Tolkien books at the moment, so I can’t give you a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/64 "2020-05-26T15:30:53Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > \*\*Is this fantastically racist? \*\* > > You don’t have to be some sort of white wizard to see that hobbits have a higher EQ than either dwarves or men. What’s fantastic about it? I mean, I get the double entendre, but I don’t accept the first meaning. And I don’t think I understand the question. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Whether it’s intrinsically racist to write fictional “races” in such an essentializing way in the first place is a different question. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And this is hardly unique to Tolkien. **Lots** of fantasy and science fiction has characters of different races (or species) that have different characteristics based on their race (or species). That’s not inherently racist; but I’ve sometimes wondered if it could encourage racist attitudes in the “real world.” > [@begbert2](#): > > Fantasy ‘races’ always make problematic analogues for human races for this reason; human racism is when _imaginary_ distinctions are drawn between groups and and then acted upon, but when it comes to fantasy ‘races’ often the distinctions are physical reality within the universe. Nowadays fantasy dwarves are all short, sturdy, and strong by definition - and are also often craftsmen, alcoholic, hairy, and greedy by definition. Since that’s the way they’re literally defined in universe it’s not in any real way racist to recognize and acknowledge it - but if the implication is to analogize them with some _human_ race that you think carries those traits, that’s racist as fuck. > > [Snip] > > But if the intention is to imply that, say, pastoral rural englishmen are more morally upright than the readily-corruptible city folk, then _that_ is a problem. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Monstrous or fantastical creatures have often bee standins in stories for the wrong kind, or inferior kind, or other kind of people. The idea that moral or ethical sensibilities are dependent on superficial characteristics or typology is prongs from a deep well of racism and prejudice. Even we don’t call it directly racist, it’s very closely relate to racist notions. Fantasy and science fiction often use their settings a as a backdrop to discuss human issues. Alien species are often a stand in for other cultures and peoples. So it is not a far stretch to consider them as analogs to human races. It’s not necessarily the intent of the authors, but it can be perceived that way. One troubling aspect of that is how these alien/fantasy species are portrayed as monolithic and simple. Dwarves/Ferengi are greedy. Elves are noble. Klingons are untrustworthy. It is like saying humans are all peaceful explorers who want to help the less fortunate and spread happiness. There’s not breath of variety. And that could feed ideas that different human races are separate monolithic identities. > [@Mijin](#): > > Interesting that the OP picked Hobbits as the master race. I would have thought the Elves are the more obvious one. They are all whiter than white (perhaps there was a black elf extra in the movies, but I don’t recall any), with long, fine hair and are holier than thou. > They also live in a beautiful city, are dignified and handsome/pretty, and, at least in LOTR, are not the aggressors. That’s how they were portrayed in LOTR, but in \*The Hobbit \*, they didn’t come across so noble. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And what about stories of anthropomorohic animals, where certain animals are Good or Evil (or clever, or savage, or treacherous, or whatever) based on what species they are a member of—do such stories encourage us to think of different races or nationalities of people the same way? That’s an interesting thought worthy of consideration. We humans are taking animals and ascribing human characteristics to them, but using some concept of their “nature” as animals to color our choices of whether they are good or evil. This allows us to tell interesting stories that relate to human experience. But we are presenting these stories to our children, and they don’t have the same understanding and filters as adults. Are they getting a subconscious message about the nature of judging people? > [@](#): > > And what about the notion that different breeds of dogs are smarter, or more savage, or more neurotic, or more trainable, than others? They’re all the same species. If you think of different breeds of dogs as having different inherent qualities, isn’t it a short step to thinking of different “breeds” of humans the same way? There’s no question about that. Racists have explicitly made that analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/65 "2020-05-26T15:51:45Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That’s how they were portrayed in LOTR, but in \*The Hobbit \*, they didn’t come across so noble. Likewise in the _Silmarillion_ and other Middle-earth tales. There are some seriously asshole characters among the Elves, even in the most “elite” lineages. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/66 "2020-05-26T18:06:58Z")
In the Silmarillion, Noldor Elves can be greedy (see the sons of Feänor) cruels ( as in hunting Humans for sport) , selfish and paranoid ( almost every King) and downright murderous, even towards other Noldors. Dwarves and Humans have their share too. The influence of Morgoth is enough to corrupt/turn some of them. In the second age, Sauron crafts the Rings, misleading Elves, Dwarves and Humans alike, leading to the fall of the mightiest empire ever see. In the third age, Sauron came back, when the free peoples are weakier than ever. There is no wonder that the surviving Elves and the more savy of the Humans and Dwarves in the third age have a sense of inevitable doom, therefore seeing the Hobbits as a fragile but precious bubble. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/67 "2020-05-26T20:10:09Z")
I think Tolkien portrays Hobbits not as weak or innocent or naive, but as “salt of the earth” types: usually not heroic but enduring, and embodying the worthwhile activities of everyday life that ultimately are what all the turmoil and struggle are for. In a sense, the whole thing was so at the end Sam could go home to his wife and raise a family in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285/68 "2020-05-26T20:40:55Z")
And he said the dwarf women also had beards so it could be hard to tell them apart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-fantastically-racist/854285.md?page=3)