# Is this finally the end for Theresa May? (Update: Apparently so) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 22, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360 "2019-05-22T17:49:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/21 "2019-05-23T16:05:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This is the one point that very few politicians seem willing to address. > > If the task is impossible, at what point did it become impossible? why were the people not informed that such a threshold was being crossed? why were they not given the option of deciding on whether to cross it? who was holding the ball at that time? was that point not noted because of incompetence or ignored in favour of a political agenda? Weren’t the Remain side informing the people of all that during the campaign leading up to the referendum? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/22 "2019-05-23T16:07:04Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The different there, of course, is that for a ‘remain’ to occur all parliament needs to do it, well, nothing. Having invoked Article 50, if they do nothing, Brexit occurs on October 31st. 2019 so far has not led me to be optimistic that a solution will be reached before that date, and I see no likelihood that a further extension will be provided. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/23 "2019-05-23T17:00:34Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Weren’t the Remain side informing the people of all that during the campaign leading up to the referendum? I read widely and deeply during the campaign and no, it was not a point that I heard made often at all and that’s not surprising as it wouldn’t have been a popular point to make to the notoriously contrary British public. Similarly the point was never made that voting for remain was not a neutral vote. it was not a vote for keeping things exactly as they are as it would have been taken a green light by Europe to push on even further and faster. That was a point rarely raised never mind acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/24 "2019-05-23T17:23:02Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go. They didn’t sell a detailed vision. They were very particular in not specifying the post-Brexit future. Mainly because they all had separate visions and knew they’d be at each others’ throats immediately afterwards. They also saw what happened when the SNP presented their detailed vision. Besides, Remain were busy spewing all sorts of laughable, obviously false nonsense. So they just sat back and let Remain lose the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/25 "2019-05-23T17:37:54Z")
Brilliant column from Ian Dunt, editor of [politics.co.uk](http://politics.co.uk) > [@](#): > > Brexit broke this prime minister, just like it broke the last one. But it won’t end there. It’ll break the next one too. And it’ll keep on breaking them, until we admit what it is. > > It is a beast. That’s the honest truth of it. You can ignore it. You can write pieces about how we should all pretend the beast is not in the room and come back together as a country. You can urge people to look at how the beast has attractive ears, if you look at them in the right light, and try not to notice the claws or the great big slavering canines. You can stubbornly insist that people voted for the beast and refuse to pay attention to how it is ominously peering down at you. It doesn’t matter. The beast remains a beast and eventually it’ll eat you alive. > > The truth about Brexit - the plain and simple truth of it, which no-one can make go away - is that it can only be done to a long timetable and with a lot of pain. It is fiendishly complicated. It requires the full capacity of the British political system for about five to seven years. The sacrifices it demands would probably never be accepted by parliament. And if you managed to get over all those obstacles, your only accomplishment would be to make the country poorer and weaker than it was before. > > A true Brexiter, someone who was really committed to doing this, would not be lying and misleading, like May, or out on the street promoting their own pure ideological certainty, like Nigel Farage. They would be honest about the timeframe and the trade offs. > > If the border is to remain open in Ireland as it is now, we need to accept the backstop and then a very close regulatory relationship. If you want free movement to end, you are cutting off services access to the continent, which is extremely harmful for an economy like the UK’s. If you give up your role in Europe, you lose the ability to shape global regulations and will eventually have to get in line with rules you had no hand in forming. These are simple facts and no amount of gibberish about ‘max-fac’ or ‘hybrid solutions’ or ‘alternative arrangements’ has made them go away. > > Maybe that’s all worth it. But if so it needs someone who is prepared to say it - to level with voters about what is happening. Over the last three years we have seen a masterclass in the consequences of not doing so. Crazed secrecy, logical contortions, transparent parliamentary tricks, and the use of deception as a primary function of the operation of government. > > The next Tory leader will find themselves in precisely this place, but much sooner. The rest of the column is [here](https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one). ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/26 "2019-05-24T00:54:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > By what sort of a majority would “remain” need to win in order for the issue to be solved? And why would anyone on either side have confidence that it settled the matter? What do you mean by “the issue to be solved”? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/27 "2019-05-24T05:32:23Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > What do you mean by “the issue to be solved”? The issue of leaving or remaining. I’m not quite sure what you are asking. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/28 "2019-05-24T05:50:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The issue of leaving or remaining. I’m not quite sure what you are asking. If there’s a concrete proposal for leaving put before the electorate in a post-legislative referendum, with a default of not leaving, then a majority of even 1 vote will “solve” that issue, in the sense of making a conclusive choice that will be implemented. I don’t see why you would think a majority of more than that might be required. I thought you might be asking what kind of majority would be needed to “solve” the issue in the sense of establishing a settled national consensus on the best course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/29 "2019-05-24T06:40:57Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go. That’s part of it, I’m sure, But you also have people like Jeremy Corbyn who keeps calling for no confidence votes to, I assume, become PM himself. Or maybe it will be Boris Johnson. To keep this short I’ll just say, 1. I would think the smartest thing would be to avoid becoming (or attempting to become) PM until either Brexit goes through or Article 50 gets withdrawn. 2. I wonder if Corbyn, Johnson, and others like them believe their own press and honestly think that if they were in charge that they could deliver a nearly pain free Brexit that most people would agree to. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/30 "2019-05-24T07:00:09Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > May held a snap election in an effort to get more leverage, but lost seats, and much of that was her fault. She didn’t entirely fail… the Conservatives are still the largest party, but are in a minority position and have to kiss up to an extremely conservative, Northern Ireland Protestant party. Said party is not in favor of a “hard border” with Ireland. > > I don’t know if May could have pulled that off if she had not bothered with the snap election. I suspect not, but it’s easy for Brexiteers to say “if only”… That seems like valid criticism. Although, from what I’ve heard, the Ireland, Northern Ireland border issue would be a huge problem regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/31 "2019-05-24T07:08:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > A big problem stems from the fact that the majority of the public voted leave and a majority of the MP’s are remain. That fundamental fact colours all of this. The vast majority of MP’s were returned by parties with a manifesto commitment to deliver Brexit whilst all the while the majority of sitting MP’s hold no love for it. Why would we be surprised that there are splits left right and centre? If you have the power to frustrate a process that you think leads to a bad outcome…why not exercise it? Because of the possibility that doing so could lead to a no-deal Brexit? > [@](#): > > I actually may vote for a brexit party or an EU reformation candidate today to ensure that we do have a disruptive influence in there when the inevitable non-brexit happens. For your country’s sake, I hope Article 50 gets withdrawn. Also, as someone living in a country with a disruptive politician backed up by a disruptive party I speak with experience when I say, don’t do it. All you’ll be doing is making Russia happy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/32 "2019-05-24T10:06:13Z")
So, she’s going on June 7th. Two more weeks of the incompetent idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/33 "2019-05-24T10:30:37Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I thought you might be asking what kind of majority would be needed to “solve” the issue in the sense of establishing a settled national consensus on the best course of action. That is what I was asking, seeing as 52-48 wasn’t taken as a settled consensus in 2016. My contention would be that an overwhelming majority for either side is unlikely and so reaching a settled consensus may well be impossible. My further point was that taking “remain” to mean the status quo is naive. Once a referendum was called, regardless of the decision, things will continue as they did before and that was certainly not a point admitted to by the remain side. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/34 "2019-05-24T10:40:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My contention would be that an overwhelming majority for either side is unlikely and so reaching a settled consensus may well be impossible. It’s probably impossible now, but I think there was a real chance to build some kind of consensus in 2016 and 2017, befitting the narrowish result to a fuzzy question. But that would have involved something other than drawing “red lines” on free movement and the customs union, which would have torn the Tories apart (again). Theresa May chose to seek a deal that would unify the Conservative Party instead, using toxic, extreme catchphrases like “Brexit means Brexit” and “no deal is better than a bad deal” to convince people that the public had voted for the very hard right-wing Brexit that she negotiated. And it still wasn’t enough to unify her party, so she spewed all those toxins into the political system and got nothing but failure and humiliation for it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/35 "2019-05-24T10:41:58Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Because of the possibility that doing so could lead to a no-deal Brexit? That is a risk but to be honest the only sensible option once triggering article 50 was to make no deal the default and negotiate from there. Once there were enough people in parliament wanting to take no deal off the table then there was no hope of any deal that could garner consensus. I would have had an internal process of defining the clear Brexit position, agreed by parliament before ever triggering article 50, regardless of how long that took. It was political weakness to trigger it too early and weakness again not to establish no deal as the default. There may be a written record of this on the dope somewhere but my stance throughout has been that Brexit won’t happen and the majority remain MP’s will frustrate any attempt to enact it. The issues will not be solved and Europe ends up with a disgruntled UK bound to an organisation that they are not strongly behind with the E.U. certain to push through even greater federalisation and the likelihood of some degree of covert punishment for the UK. That’s not a healthy position to be in for either party. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/36 "2019-05-24T10:44:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Once a referendum was called, regardless of the decision, things will continue as they did before and that was certainly not a point admitted to by the remain side. Just to be clear, I of course mean that “things will \*\*\*not \*\*\*continue as they did before” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/37 "2019-05-24T12:38:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It’s probably impossible now, but I think there was a real chance to build some kind of consensus in 2016 and 2017, befitting the narrowish result to a fuzzy question. That is not correct: the question posed in the 2016 referendum was not fuzzy at all. We were given the choice of Leave or Remain. It was crystal clear. Let me [refresh](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12122349/This-is-what-the-ballot-paper-for-the-EU-referendum-vote-will-look-like.html) your memory. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/38 "2019-05-24T12:41:59Z")
I know exactly what the ballot paper said. The fuzziness is that not-in-the-EU is not a defined status. There is no way to meaningfully describe the entire set of countries that are not in the EU, which includes Norway and North Korea. There are any number of options that would faithfully execute the directive to “leave the European Union.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/39 "2019-05-24T12:52:39Z")
Resigning in tears… as her successor might end up doing, too: [Brexit failure forces Theresa May to announce resignation | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/europe/theresa-may-resigns-brexit-gbr-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360/40 "2019-05-24T13:29:08Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I know exactly what the ballot paper said. So why deny it? > [@](#): > > The fuzziness is that not-in-the-EU is not a defined status. That question was not asked, so your point is irrelevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-finally-the-end-for-theresa-may-update-apparently-so/834360.md?page=3)