# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/1 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")
This rant is directed to Americans, specifically Americans who support Bush. I just don’t get it. I really don’t. You talk about freedom as a political argument in itself, as the most important thing, as the foundation of your nation. When someone suggests that a federal ID card might be a nice thing to have, you go apeshit. When someone tries to take away your right to carry guns, you go apeshit. When someone wants to raise taxes, you go apeshit. But when your government [gives itself the right to detain anybody anywhere in the world](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo2dec02,1,5616918.story) without due process, without allowing access to a lawyer, without showing them the evidence, without allowing them any rights whatsoever or any way to protest the detention… you cheer. This is America taking a big crap on the entire world, including itself. Why doesn’t this worry you? Your government is turning the US military into an international KGB, and you applaud. Even if you think this administration is perfect and Bush can do no wrong, why don’t you stop to think that maybe some day there will be another administration with another President that maybe doesn’t do everything exactly the way you like it… but he’ll still have these powers? He’ll still be able to pick up you or your family or your friends or any innocent person anywhere, just because it struck his fancy. Does this sound good to you? Is that the kind of world you want? I just don’t get it. Freedom, you say. This isn’t freedom. This is the opposite of freedom. I think **Lib** ’s been right all along: Bush is a tyrant. [sub]The url is to LA Times which requires registration. Use [bugmenot.com](http://bugmenot.com) if you don’t want to register.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/2 "2004-12-12T14:06:20Z")
Bush IS a tyrant. I AM worried about this. And I feel powerless to effect any change. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/3 "2004-12-12T14:12:17Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > But when your government [gives itself the right to detain anybody anywhere in the world](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo2dec02,1,5616918.story) without due process, without allowing access to a lawyer, without showing them the evidence, without allowing them any rights whatsoever or any way to protest the detention… you cheer. As long as they don’t use it on white people. Or at least, just on scary-looking white people with beards and names with “bin” in them. Then that’s fine. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/4 "2004-12-12T14:12:21Z")
I tried to register on the first link and it goes to a blank page, and that other link ([bugmenot.com](http://bugmenot.com)), doesn’t appear to be a solution either. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/5 "2004-12-12T14:14:17Z")
You don’t understand: it’s freedoms for US, but not for THEM. Especially if THEM is people who disagree with US. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/6 "2004-12-12T14:16:43Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > You don’t understand: it’s freedoms for US, but not for THEM. Nothing stops this being used against Americans. > [@](#): > > Especially if THEM is people who disagree with US. Disagreeing with the US isn’t a prerequisite either. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/7 "2004-12-12T14:32:49Z")
Registration free [link.](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2927692) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Under detailed questioning by a federal judge, government lawyers asserted Wednesday that the U.S. military can hold foreigners indefinitely as enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, even if they aided terrorists unintentionally and never fought the United States. > > U.S. District Judge Joyce Hens Green asked if a “little old lady in Switzerland” who sent a check to an orphanage in Afghanistan could be taken into custody if some of her donation was passed to al-Qaida terrorists without her knowledge. > > “She could,” replied Deputy Associate Attorney General Brian Boyle. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/8 "2004-12-12T14:50:00Z")
Hey, I voted against Bush twice, but apparently the GOP’s adoption of torture and the slow diminuition of free speech appeals to the unwashed yahoos in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/9 "2004-12-12T15:15:51Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > This isn’t freedom. This is the opposite of freedom. No, no - see the US was founded on freedom. So if you love freedom, you support the US. If you don’t support the US you hate freedom. The President of the United States is the Leader of the Free World, and He knows freedom. Freedom is what He tells you it is. The US military enforces freedom. If you hate freedom, the military may come after you, and it’s your own fault. As long as you love freedom, you have nothing to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/10 "2004-12-12T16:59:42Z")
Just as leftists have ruined the word “liberal”, so rightists are ruining the word “freedom”. Before long, the notion of being free will scare people to death. Freedom ought to mean the absence of coercion, but rightists are making it into the absence of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/11 "2004-12-12T17:06:55Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > This is America taking a big crap on the entire world, including itself. Why doesn’t this worry you? Your government is turning the US military into an international KGB, and you applaud. Even if you think this administration is perfect and Bush can do no wrong, why don’t you stop to think that maybe some day there will be another administration with another President that maybe doesn’t do everything exactly the way you like it… but he’ll still have these powers? He’ll still be able to pick up you or your family or your friends or any innocent person anywhere, just because it struck his fancy. Does this sound good to you? Is that the kind of world you want? > > I just don’t get it. Freedom, you say. This isn’t freedom. This is the opposite of freedom. I think **Lib** ’s been right all along: Bush is a tyrant. > > [sub]The url is to LA Times which requires registration. Use [bugmenot.com](http://bugmenot.com) if you don’t want to register.[/sub] Another waste of time directed at Bush again, give it a rest, and grow up you fucking baby. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/12 "2004-12-12T17:18:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Another waste of time directed at Bush again, give it a rest, and grow up you fucking baby. You vile and despicable Tory. Only cowards support tyranny. By welcoming their overlords, they hope the pain that they endure will be less severe than that of their neighbor whom they have reported for sedition. If you want to be butt-fucked by elephants on a stampede, that’s your business. But at the very least, do not impede those who put up a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/13 "2004-12-12T17:31:21Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Another waste of time directed at Bush again, give it a rest, and grow up you fucking baby. Y’know, part of me is generally sympathetic towards people on this board who did vote for Bush. A lot of shit does get tossed around unfairly. People are using BIIIIG brushes to tar others. However, this is just a bullshit argument in and of itself. The right of habeas corpus, the right to a lawyer, the right to be innocent until proven guilty… these are not flimsy little quibbles being blown out of proportion by the “liberal elite”. They’re a bedrock of truly democratic societies, whether enshrined in a common law or social tradition. They are not American rights or the rights only deserved by those fortunate enough to live in a republic… they are _human_ rights. People have started revolutions, people have fought and died demanding these rights. And you call the erosion of these rights on any front a “waste of time”? I say shame on you. This touches the heart of what has ever made the United States a country worthy of emulation. There are people sitting in Guatanemo Bay who have been taken from their homes, taken from what is now possibly years of their lives, without stated cause or hope of ever seeing it again. If the Star-spangled banner didn’t fly above them, I’d expect to hear about it on the Castro side of Cuba. Are these people prisoners of war? If they are then treat them as such. Are they prisoners under law? Then you must treat them as such. The President of the United States should not stand for, and should never act as though, he has _fiat_ to imprison at whim. For down that road _does_ lie tyranny, whether he wishes it or no. And down that messy, deadly path are engraved the words _sic semper tyrannis_ ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/14 "2004-12-12T18:57:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You vile and despicable Tory. Only cowards support tyranny. By welcoming their overlords, they hope the pain that they endure will be less severe than that of their neighbor whom they have reported for sedition. If you want to be butt-fucked by elephants on a stampede, that’s your business. But at the very least, do not impede those who put up a fight. Strange how I support Labour and always have done. Another one slapped down again. Pwned. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/15 "2004-12-12T19:05:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Pwned. How? With some ridiculous non-sequitur that has nothing to do with anything in that post you quoted? I may not agree with **Lib** much (most?) of the time, but at least he normally makes cogent and on-point arguments. Or to use terms you might understand: u r teh suxx0rz. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/16 "2004-12-12T19:10:06Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > How? With some ridiculous non-sequitur that has nothing to do with anything in that post you quoted? I may not agree with **Lib** much (most?) of the time, but at least he normally makes cogent and on-point arguments. > > Or to use terms you might understand: u r teh suxx0rz. If you’re an enemy of tyranny, you’re a friend of mine. Whatever differences we might have, we can set them aside long enough to fight for each other’s right to have them. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/17 "2004-12-12T19:19:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > If you’re an enemy of tyranny, you’re a friend of mine. Whatever differences we might have, we can set them aside long enough to fight for each other’s right to have them. Agreed. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to call Bush a tyrant. _per se_; after all he’s not operating alone or with governmental autonomy (which is probably a good thing), but as a whole his administration has many of the characteristic traits of the quintessential tyrant. But for the most part, I admit that I don’t “get” politics. I’m still scratching my head over why more of the Patriot Act hasn’t been challenged as unconstitutional. There was that one section, but the Act still has teeth. i consider it a dangerous piece of legislature - not so much in and if itself, though there is that, but for the precedent it has set. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/18 "2004-12-12T20:25:45Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > This rant is directed to Americans, specifically Americans who support Bush. I hope it’s not directed at me. I voted for Kerry, and I’m a card carrying member of the ACLU, an organization actively working to stop civil rights violations. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/19 "2004-12-12T20:41:53Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > This rant is directed to Americans, specifically Americans who support Bush. > > I just don’t get it. I really don’t. You talk about freedom as a political argument in itself, as the most important thing, as the foundation of your nation. When someone suggests that a federal ID card might be a nice thing to have, > you go apeshit. I don’t get this either. What’s wrong with a federal ID? Every other country has it. I know you’re not addressing me, because I never voted for him, but as always with these types of threads I feel I must speak up for the other half of the country. > [@](#): > > When someone tries to take away your right to carry guns, you go apeshit. And this too. Keep in mind that the most ardent gun control advocate suggests absolutely prohibiting firearms. It is after all stated in the Constitution that we can keep and bear arms. All they suggest is reasonable regulation and limitations, like the idea that it might be a good idea to ban automatic weapons. > [@](#): > > When someone wants to raise taxes, you go apeshit. But when your government [gives itself the right to detain anybody anywhere in the world](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo2dec02,1,5616918.story) without due process, without allowing access to a lawyer, without showing them the evidence, without allowing them any rights whatsoever or any way to protest the detention… you cheer. > > This is America taking a big crap on the entire world, including itself. Why doesn’t this worry you? It does worry the rest of us, you can be sure of that. > [@](#): > > Your government is turning the US military into an international KGB, and you applaud. Even if you think this administration is perfect and Bush can do no wrong, why don’t you stop to think that maybe some day there will be another administration with another President that maybe doesn’t do everything exactly the way you like it… but he’ll still have these powers? He’ll still be able to pick up you or your family or your friends or any innocent person anywhere, just because it struck his fancy. Does this sound good to you? Is that the kind of world you want? > > I just don’t get it. Freedom, you say. This isn’t freedom. This is the opposite of freedom. I think **Lib** ’s been right all along: Bush is a tyrant. > > [sub]The url is to LA Times which requires registration. Use [bugmenot.com](http://bugmenot.com) if you don’t want to register.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/20 "2004-12-12T20:43:43Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Hey, I voted against Bush twice, but apparently the GOP’s adoption of torture and the slow diminuition of free speech appeals to the unwashed yahoos in this country. I agree. I voted against this Bush twice, and all without effect. At the very least this time I can rejoice that I got to see my Senator, Russ Feingold (he’s the only one to vote against the Patriot Act) get re-elected. But that’s only lukewarm comfort compared to the big picture for me. Now I’m just keeping my head down and trying to ensure the health, safety, and prosperity of my family. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=2)