# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/241 "2004-12-18T03:13:02Z")
[Fear factor: 44 percent of Americans queried in Cornell national poll favor curtailing some liberties for Muslim Americans](http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec04/Muslim.Poll.bpf.html) > [@](#): > > In a study to determine how much the public fears terrorism, almost half of respondents polled nationally said they believe the U.S. government should – in some way – curtail civil liberties for Muslim Americans, according to a new survey released today (Dec. 17) by Cornell University. > > About 27 percent of respondents said that all Muslim Americans should be required to register their location with the federal government, and 26 percent said they think that mosques should be closely monitored by U.S. law enforcement agencies. Twenty-nine percent agreed that undercover law enforcement agents should infiltrate Muslim civic and volunteer organizations, in order to keep tabs on their activities and fund raising. About 22 percent said the federal government should profile citizens as potential threats based on the fact that they are Muslim or have Middle Eastern heritage. In all, about 44 percent said they believe that some curtailment of civil liberties is necessary for Muslim Americans. Full Reports (pdf): [Restrictions on Civil Liberties, Views of Islam, & Muslim Americans](http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf) [U.S. War on Terror, U.S.Foreign Policy, and Anti-Americanism](http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1b.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/242 "2004-12-18T03:39:59Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [Fear factor: 44 percent of Americans queried in Cornell national poll favor curtailing some liberties for Muslim Americans](http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec04/Muslim.Poll.bpf.html) Isn’t that racism - and hardly a great advertisement for ‘the land of the free’?? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/243 "2004-12-18T03:47:37Z")
First of all, how can it be racism when Muslims aren’t a race? Or even an ethnic group? If you sat outside the mosque on Riverside Drive and watched people come out, I think you’d be surprised at how you have black, white, and everything in between there. Some of this does bother me but the problem is that in Muslim lands there is, essentially, no separation of mosque and state. Political sermons and plots are hatched right in the mosques. _Some_ monitoring of _some of the most radical ones_ seems to make perfect sense. Their imams, if they are not American, should be deported like any other dangerous criminals; if they are American, they should be exposed in the press and face criticism from people inside and outside their faith much and Robertson and Falwell do. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/244 "2004-12-18T04:16:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mehitabel] First of all, how can it be racism when Muslims aren’t a race? Or even an ethnic group? Perhaps I should have written religious persecution then - I chose the word ‘racism’ instead because I have noticed that many Americans seem to equate the word ‘Muslim’ with ‘Arab’ or ‘Middle Eastern’. Even the American media are sloppy about differentiating between Muslims - they often use the word Muslim when they really mean Iraqi, Afghani etc. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/245 "2004-12-18T09:08:52Z")
“First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out– because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out– because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out– because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me– and there was no one left to speak out for me.” ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/246 "2004-12-18T18:00:10Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. Not even a little tiny bit. I also don’t worry that the Airforce will bomb my house or that the Army will shell my backyard, but that is also going on, _sans_ trials and whatnot. Funny how there have been no (well, few, if you count that strafing in New Jersey) incidents where the military used its other powers against people. > > It’s not like they are just sitting around and waiting to steal away with your aunt or something. Maybe they’ll make a mistake, which has happened enough times in the past. Maybe the political climate will swing, and someone who disagrees with your opinions will be in the White House and decide that claiming you’re a terrorist in order to detain you indefinitely is a good thing to do. Do you really have such faith in the government of the US that you’re ready to give it, in practice, unlimited powers, even though the actual persons wielding those powers change? Why _couldn’t_ another Hitler turn up in your country? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/247 "2004-12-18T18:17:08Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Maybe they’ll make a mistake, which has happened enough times in the past. Maybe the political climate will swing, and someone who disagrees with your opinions will be in the White House and decide that claiming you’re a terrorist in order to detain you indefinitely is a good thing to do. Do you really have such faith in the government of the US that you’re ready to give it, in practice, unlimited powers, even though the actual persons wielding those powers change? Why _couldn’t_ another Hitler turn up in your country? Hitler came out of the carnage of the 1929 Stock Market crash and the weak Versailles government in place in Germany at the time, and also, because it wasn’t properly defeated, allowed a sentiment of revenge to swell up in the German populace, all of which was exploited by Hitler. So no, the next one won’t come to the United States, the Middle East, well, thats a different story, there is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/248 "2004-12-18T18:18:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Their imams, if they are not American, should be deported like any other dangerous criminals; if they are American, they should be exposed in the press and face criticism from people inside and outside their faith much and Robertson and Falwell do. Political Correctness sometimes gets in the way of things, oh wait, they did ban Cat Stevens, seem to be going in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/249 "2004-12-18T22:07:11Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Maybe they’ll make a mistake, which has happened enough times in the past. You miss the point. Right now, _sans_ warrants, the military pops fuckers left and right over in Iraq and Afghanistan. (And they were in on taking out that gaggle of terrs over in Yemen), not to mention ‘quiet’ operations in Columbia and Philippines and wherever else these days. Do you sit and worry that you are next? An armed Predator drone is circling over your house, waiting to zap you! An USMC sniper is waiting for you to poke your head out the front door, and whammo! Of course not. So why are you worried that some SEALs are going to snatch you up? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/250 "2004-12-18T23:03:00Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Right now, _sans_ warrants, the military pops fuckers left and right over in Iraq and Afghanistan. And innocent civilians. But of course, that doesn’t worry you at all, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/251 "2004-12-18T23:23:03Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@Brutus](#): > > > > Right now, sans warrants, the military pops fuckers left and right over in Iraq and Afghanistan. > > And innocent civilians. But of course, that doesn’t worry you at all, does it? And hostile militants. Friendly fire’s the only worthwhile casualties. Brutus is mostly right, problem is, those US killed by their own are only a minority of total kills. That’s hardly an acceptable degree of accuracy, is it now? No the point is well made, these powers are not used with sufficient precision. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/252 "2004-12-19T10:30:50Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Do you sit and worry that you are next? No, but just because you tend to get a little bit more warning before someone goes war on you. American agents turned up in my own home country not long ago, snatched away two people with full legal rights to stay and left with them. Where? Why? No-one knows, probably not even those two. No-one has to tell them, no-one has to give them a chance to defend themselves, no-one has to tell anybody any reasons or justification. What’s to stop me from being next? Maybe a charity organization I give to supports terrorists without my knowledge, or maybe someone _thinks_ I give to a charity organization that they _think_ supports terrorists. There goes me. Come on. You cannot not see the point of maintaining habeas corpus. Do you think laying out the Bill of Rights was a waste of time, because the government won’t do anything bad anyway, and if they do, it won’t be to you? Would you worry if another country was the biggest kid on the block and gave itself these powers? Say, China, or the Soviet Union, or North Korea, or Iraq. What if one of those were the sole superpower and decided to go the US route and give itself international rights to detain anybody anywhere for no reason while conferring no rights? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/253 "2004-12-19T15:44:38Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Would you worry if another country was the biggest kid on the block and gave itself these powers? Say, China, or the Soviet Union, or North Korea, or Iraq. What if one of those were the sole superpower and decided to go the US route and give itself international rights to detain anybody anywhere for no reason while conferring no rights? I already asked this question pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/254 "2004-12-20T07:25:09Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Not that I would answer that, since I don’t feel it’s the goverments job to play social engineer Oh, goody, another so-called principle. How one can turn from chortling over the CIA revamping entire countries or denying people civil rights within its own borders to claiming to be an enemy of the government playing social engineer is beyond me. Claiming for yourself the right to detain anyone in the world without charges, access to lawyers, or even public notification of what you’ve done: that’s like, some sort of anti-Heisenbergian magic that has no effect on society? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/255 "2004-12-20T08:46:16Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > How one can turn from chortling over the CIA revamping entire countries or denying people civil rights within its own borders to claiming to be an enemy of the government playing social engineer is beyond me. Probably because you are making illogical comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/256 "2004-12-20T10:24:31Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You miss the point. Right now, _sans_ warrants, the military pops fuckers left and right over in Iraq and Afghanistan. (And they were in on taking out that gaggle of terrs over in Yemen), not to mention ‘quiet’ operations in Columbia and Philippines and wherever else these days. Yep, and just like Operation Phoenix they are capturing and killing quite a few innocents and quite a few bystanders whilst doing it. I don’t trust their motives, I don’t trust the intelligence, and I sure as hell don’t trust the leaders to be actually targeting the right people. You’re confusing movement with progress. There have been more terrorist attacks worldwide in the years since 9-11 than in the three years proceeding 9-11. Just cause the US hasn’t been attacked on as massive a scale means nothing - the world is less safe than 4 years ago. Just because America exists in a false sense of security and lives in constant low-level panic occasionally boosted by vague threat alerts means nothing - tell the Aussies or the Iraqis they are better off now. > [@Brutus](#): > > Do you sit and worry that you are next? An armed Predator drone is circling over your house, waiting to zap you! An USMC sniper is waiting for you to poke your head out the front door, and whammo! Of course not. So why are you worried that some SEALs are going to snatch you up? I don’t worry about that now, or even tomorrow, but if the steady erosion of civil rights means that in 10 years, that might be the exact situation we are in. It’s a slippery slope, mate - it goes slowly at first, but gets worse and worse the further down the slide you go. And I absolutely don’t trust the fuckers running the show right now to understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/257 "2004-12-20T11:01:36Z")
**Brutus** : since you refuse to answer questions and have complained that the Pit is not the place for a serious discussion about this matter, I opened [this Great Debates thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5629928). Feel free to pop in with your view. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/258 "2004-12-20T15:53:39Z")
They’re _banning_ photography in the NY fucking subways for christsakes! “Terrorists could possibly take pictures of vital subway infrastructure” :rolleyes: How can any sane person defend these measures? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/259 "2004-12-20T16:21:38Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > **Brutus** : since you refuse to answer questions and have complained that the Pit is not the place for a serious discussion about this matter, I opened [this Great Debates thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5629928). Feel free to pop in with your view. I don’t think you’ll get an answer, considering Brutus’ posting history. He might surprise us all though. And the moon might be made of green cheese. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/260 "2004-12-20T16:25:22Z")
Generally when you have him cornered like a rat on the run, he’ll STFU rather than concede a point. I suspect that’s the case here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=14)