# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/21 "2004-12-12T20:44:03Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > And this too. Keep in mind that the most ardent gun control advocate suggests absolutely prohibiting firearms. It is after all stated in the Constitution that we can keep and bear arms. All they suggest is reasonable regulation and limitations, like the idea that it might be a good idea to ban automatic weapons. > It does worry the rest of us, you can be sure of that. Oh, cripes. I meant to say, “the most ardent gun control advocate **does not** suggest absolutely prohibiting firearms” But you could probably guess that from the context. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/22 "2004-12-12T20:54:17Z")
Not that it wasn’t brought up before (among others repeatedly by me in when being in a state of suicide-at-SDMB attempt), but nevertheless: Thank you OP. Not that I have now the slightest illusion that the message shall be able to reach the closed minds of those who need to wake up. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/23 "2004-12-12T23:05:55Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Agreed. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to call Bush a tyrant. _per se_; after all he’s not operating alone or with governmental autonomy (which is probably a good thing), but as a whole his administration has many of the characteristic traits of the quintessential tyrant. > > But for the most part, I admit that I don’t “get” politics. I’m still scratching my head over why more of the Patriot Act hasn’t been challenged as unconstitutional. There was that one section, but the Act still has teeth. i consider it a dangerous piece of legislature - not so much in and if itself, though there is that, but for the precedent it has set. It is the piranhic tyranny that is the most insidious, and the only variety that can be foisted upon an educated republic. Were there a Stalin or Hitler, we could muster the fortitude and vigilance to save ourselves. But our freedoms are being eaten away a morsel at a time. We humans are nothing if not adaptable, and they are careful to strap us with no more than we can bear each time they bite. Death by what you call the “quintessential tyrant” is like being shot with a gun; death by the tyrants we have is like smoking cigarettes for forty years. ---
**Author:** ![Liz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/liz/32/17737_2.png) [@Liz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liz)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/24 "2004-12-12T23:30:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It is the piranhic tyranny that is the most insidious, and the only variety that can be foisted upon an educated republic. Were there a Stalin or Hitler, we could muster the fortitude and vigilance to save ourselves. But our freedoms are being eaten away a morsel at a time. We humans are nothing if not adaptable, and they are careful to strap us with no more than we can bear each time they bite. Death by what you call the “quintessential tyrant” is like being shot with a gun; death by the tyrants we have is like smoking cigarettes for forty years. Yes, yes, yes. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect post. It’s what I’ve been trying to explain to a co-worker of mine: if the Bush administration had attempted [which I know isn’t possible, per se] to implement all of these decisions at once [the Iraq war, the appointing of ultra-conservative SC judges, the marriage amendment, the Patriot Act, ad infinitum] the outcry would have been deafening. Instead of a flood, it’s been drop by drop into an enormous pool and gone mostly unheard. Either way is just as dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/25 "2004-12-12T23:31:48Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Not that it wasn’t brought up before (among others repeatedly by me in when being in a state of suicide-at-SDMB attempt), but nevertheless: Thank you OP. > > Not that I have now the slightest illusion that the message shall be able to reach the closed minds of those who need to wake up. > > Salaam. A Talking of closed minds, lets start with you Bush hater boy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/26 "2004-12-12T23:33:11Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > How? With some ridiculous non-sequitur that has nothing to do with anything in that post you quoted? I may not agree with **Lib** much (most?) of the time, but at least he normally makes cogent and on-point arguments. > > Or to use terms you might understand: u r teh suxx0rz. I don’t care, he got it wrong, I savoured the moment asshat. Pwned. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/27 "2004-12-12T23:53:27Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t care, he got it wrong, I savoured the moment asshat. Oh, so he got the “coward support tyranny” part right? Well, that’s good to know, then. Pwned. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/28 "2004-12-12T23:54:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t care, he got it wrong, I savoured the moment asshat. He got _what_ wrong? You post didn’t address _anything he said_. What does your support of Labour have to do with the post by **Liberal** which you quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/29 "2004-12-13T00:16:38Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > He got _what_ wrong? You post didn’t address _anything he said_. What does your support of Labour have to do with the post by **Liberal** which you quoted? He’s claiming that because he supported the party called “Labour” (leftist), he cannot have been a Tory (rightist) — much like Benedict Arnold cannot have supported the British since he served in Washington’s army. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/30 "2004-12-13T00:47:50Z")
[/quote] Pwned. [/QUOTE] Stop talking. Please, just stop talking. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/31 "2004-12-13T00:54:30Z")
Liam, you cuntrag, there you go mucking the boards up with your monthly flow again. Just go somewhere and fuck off for a time and leave the adults here to have intellectual discussions. Your ignorant and openly hateful diatribes get old because your story never changes. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/32 "2004-12-13T01:03:23Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Liam, you cuntrag, there you go mucking the boards up with your monthly flow again. Just go somewhere and fuck off for a time and leave the adults here to have intellectual discussions. Your ignorant and openly hateful diatribes get old because your story never changes. > > Sam Thanks for sharing your well thought-out position on the matter. You provide us with an excellent example of ‘intellectual discussion’! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/33 "2004-12-13T01:10:54Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > At the very least this time I can rejoice that I got to see my Senator, Russ Feingold (he’s the only one to vote against the Patriot Act) get re-elected. But that’s only lukewarm comfort compared to the big picture for me. TOTAL HIJACK: Is it about time for Feingold to run for president? Maybe even better, for Vice-President with John McCain at the top of the ticket? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/34 "2004-12-13T01:16:45Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Bush IS a tyrant. I AM worried about this. And I feel powerless to effect any change. I’ll agree with **Spooje** & **Gobear** here. And like **Spooje** , I don’t know what to do about it. The terrorists **have** won! The US has become so afraid of being attacked again, we’re willing to sacrafice our most cherished personal liberties in order to feel “safe.” ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/35 "2004-12-13T01:28:29Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Thanks for sharing your well thought-out position on the matter. You provide us with an excellent example of ‘intellectual discussion’! :rolleyes: Funny, I’ve never seen you add anything substantial to a conversation, ever. Just random attacks on the viewpoints of others, without anything to back up “your own” opinions. Anyone want to take bets on how Brutus will respond to my post? Five dollars to whoever’s closest. It won’t be that hard. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/36 "2004-12-13T01:28:32Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Thanks for sharing your well thought-out position on the matter. The same could be said for your contribution to this thread, so thank _you_! After all, what is a tyrant without his collaborators? Think long and hard about the world you’re helping to craft, Brutus. You’re far too clever (and, I must admit, paranoid) to keep supporting this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/37 "2004-12-13T01:33:16Z")
Not that I agree with what the Administration’s doing, but there _is_ precident on their side. IIRC, it was about 10 years ago that the CIA snatched some drug lord from Mexico, without bothering to inform the locals of what they were doing, and without following the basic rights accorded under US law. It went to SCOTUS, who said, “Hey! You’re operating outside the US! The Constitution doesn’t apply to such things!” Then, of course, there’s the whole business of Lincoln suspending _habeas corpus_ during the Civil War, but let’s not go back that far in American history. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/38 "2004-12-13T01:34:28Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > This rant is directed to Americans, specifically Americans who support Bush. > > I just don’t get it. I really don’t. You talk about freedom as a political argument in itself, as the most important thing, as the foundation of your nation. When someone suggests that a federal ID card might be a nice thing to have, you go apeshit. When someone tries to take away your right to carry guns, you go apeshit. When someone wants to raise taxes, you go apeshit. But when your government [gives itself the right to detain anybody anywhere in the world](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo2dec02,1,5616918.story) without due process, without allowing access to a lawyer, without showing them the evidence, without allowing them any rights whatsoever or any way to protest the detention… you cheer. > [/sub] I voted for Bush. I don’t think many right wingers are against a federal ID card. Why so hostile to those wanting to preserve their right to keep guns and keep taxes low? Seems hypocritical to attack those wanting to preserve the existing right to keep their guns and, in the same paragraph, attack them for not fighting to preserve the existing rights of a fair trial. And no, I’m not cheering this policy. Not everyone that supports Bush agrees with every single policy of his. Always enjoy being included in the many generalizations of conservatives posted on this baord, though. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/39 "2004-12-13T01:37:37Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > TOTAL HIJACK: Is it about time for Feingold to run for president? Maybe even better, for Vice-President with John McCain at the top of the ticket? Well, it’s a little early, since the next opportunity for such a thing isn’t until 2008. But I don’t think Russ wants to run for Prez, he’s said as much to me, and others. He holds his seat in the Senate in part due to the last slowly fading strains of Wisconsin progressivism, a la “Battling Bob” LaFollette. It wouldn’t play in the red states. But with McCain on the top of the ticket? That might be interesting. Though I think it unlikely. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/40 "2004-12-13T02:13:28Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I’ll agree with **Spooje** & **Gobear** here. And like **Spooje** , I don’t know what to do about it. > > The terrorists **have** won! The US has become so afraid of being attacked again, we’re willing to sacrafice our most cherished personal liberties in order to feel “safe.” This question has been asked before, although never really answered, so I will ask it again. Just which of your most cherished personal liberties have you given up? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=3)