# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/41 "2004-12-13T02:33:33Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Just which of your most cherished personal liberties have you given up? How about [this one?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12740&c=206) Or maybe [this?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=13079&c=207) Maybe [this](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12942&c=207) is better for you? I’m no expert, but this doesn’t look very good to me. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/42 "2004-12-13T03:32:13Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Thanks for sharing your well thought-out position on the matter. You provide us with an excellent example of ‘intellectual discussion’! :rolleyes: Like me, many many people have simply given up on trogs like you and Ryan. How does one expect people to attempt substantive conversation with empty heads like the two of you? Thanks for your opinion on the matter though! Means the world to me, honey. Sam ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/43 "2004-12-13T04:03:50Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > How about [this one?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12740&c=206) Or maybe [this?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=13079&c=207) Maybe [this](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12942&c=207) is better for you? I’m no expert, but this doesn’t look very good to me. But you fail to grasp **milroyj** ’s subtle and brilliant position on this issue. He tends to take the position that if you, personally, have not suffered a direct deprivation of liberty, then there is, in fact, no danger to liberty. Providing examples of other people who have been deprived of their liberties, or other instances in which liberty is generally threatened, is, for **milroyj** , insufficient to prove your case. The only way you might convince him if is you could show that you had been taken into custody without cause, and were now posting from Guantanamo. But then, of course, that would make you a terrorist, and therefore an unreliable source. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/44 "2004-12-13T04:50:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But you fail to grasp **milroyj** ’s subtle and brilliant position on this issue. > > He tends to take the position that if you, personally, have not suffered a direct deprivation of liberty, then there is, in fact, no danger to liberty. Providing examples of other people who have been deprived of their liberties, or other instances in which liberty is generally threatened, is, for **milroyj** , insufficient to prove your case. > > The only way you might convince him if is you could show that you had been taken into custody without cause, and were now posting from Guantanamo. But then, of course, that would make you a terrorist, and therefore an unreliable source. Well, no, it’s not just that you, personally, have not suffered a direct deprivation of liberty, but the fact is, practically no one else has, either. Were not 99.9% of the current residents of Gitmo captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan fighting against Americans? People who take up arms against Americans and only have their liberty deprived, ought to count their lucky stars. And let’s see who else has had their liberty deprived. Moussouai? Reid? The Lackawana idiots in Buffalo? How about the guy trying to run a jihad camp in Oregon? Those Muslim “charities” in Chicago that gave money to the killers of David Boim? Saddam Hussein’s liberty has been deprived, of late, but I submit he’s better off now than he was in his hidey-hole. So, just whose rights am I supposed to be concerned about again? I know that amongst the loony-left, there will be people who will claim that even Osama Bin Laden has rights. Of course, they would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/45 "2004-12-13T04:58:29Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Were not 99.9% of the current residents of Gitmo captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan fighting against Americans? [Well no.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/16/60II/main573616.shtml) > [@](#): > > “Many of these people were turned over in a bounty hunt, swept up in a bounty hunt, nothing more than that,” says Wilner. “A lot of these people down there are innocent. **They were picked up by mistake**. There’s no question about that.” > So far, three prisoners have been charged with crimes, and a total of 137, including three teenagers, have been sent home. Army officials insist none of them was innocent… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/46 "2004-12-13T05:18:31Z")
To the people who have disagreed with the O.P.: I suspect strongly that President Bush (43) is a well-meaning man who sincerely believes that what he is doing is protecting freedom by providing adequate security that free Americans (and free citizens/subjects of other countries) can go about their daily business without fear. IMO, he honestly does not see the subtle, slow erosion of human rights of which **Lib** and **matt** have spoken, as being anything of real concern. And his supporters (again IMO) see any criticism as an attack on him. Therefore, I’d like to ask **Brutus, ryan** and any other people who took issue with the O.P. to put aside rhetoric directed at those claiming that Mr. Bush is heading towards tyranny, and direct their attention to the question of the allegations of Fabian statism eroding freedoms held dear and guaranteed to Americans in the Bill of Rights. I presume you can reconcile the Bush Administration actions with a sense of preservation of freedom – I would like to understand better how you do so. This is not an invitation to put your neck on the chopping block, though I’m sure a few strong anti-Bush posters would welcome the chance to take a verbal swing at you. It’s a sincere desire to understand your positions on the sorts of issues raised in this thread. I look forward to reading what you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/47 "2004-12-13T06:02:38Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > I voted for Bush. I don’t think many right wingers are against a federal ID card. Why so hostile to those wanting to preserve their right to keep guns and keep taxes low? Seems hypocritical to attack those wanting to preserve the existing right to keep their guns and, in the same paragraph, attack them for not fighting to preserve the existing rights of a fair trial. Actually, it doesn’t look to me like the OP is attacking people resisting gun control laws, but rather wondering how people who have fought so fiercely to protect their freedoms in one setting have so willingly handed them over in another. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/48 "2004-12-13T10:12:36Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > He got _what_ wrong? You post didn’t address _anything he said_. What does your support of Labour have to do with the post by **Liberal** which you quoted? I’m refering to the fact he called me a Tory when I am in fact a Labour supporter, but the thing is, just because the Tories are right wing doesn’t mean they want to trample on civil liberties, in fact its been proven to be usually the other side of the political field which has usually trampled on human rights. > [@](#): > > You vile and despicable Tory. Only cowards support tyranny. What tyranny!? Please tell me how the patriot act bullshit has affected you personally and I might actually give a toss. Doesn’t anyone ever remember World War two and the suspension of civil liberties in that regards of freedom of information and press coverage? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/49 "2004-12-13T10:20:40Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > To the people who have disagreed with the O.P.: > > I suspect strongly that President Bush (43) is a well-meaning man who sincerely believes that what he is doing is protecting freedom by providing adequate security that free Americans (and free citizens/subjects of other countries) can go about their daily business without fear. IMO, he honestly does not see the subtle, slow erosion of human rights of which **Lib** and **matt** have spoken, as being anything of real concern. And his supporters (again IMO) see any criticism as an attack on him. > > Therefore, I’d like to ask **Brutus, ryan** and any other people who took issue with the O.P. to put aside rhetoric directed at those claiming that Mr. Bush is heading towards tyranny, and direct their attention to the question of the allegations of Fabian statism eroding freedoms held dear and guaranteed to Americans in the Bill of Rights. I presume you can reconcile the Bush Administration actions with a sense of preservation of freedom – I would like to understand better how you do so. > > This is not an invitation to put your neck on the chopping block, though I’m sure a few strong anti-Bush posters would welcome the chance to take a verbal swing at you. It’s a sincere desire to understand your positions on the sorts of issues raised in this thread. I look forward to reading what you have to say. I believe that if you think President Bush can engineer a stomp on civil liberties, a war against terrorism, and try and bring about an economic revival whilst acting a completely stupid manner that so many anti Bush people say, then they are contradicting themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Legolamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Legolamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legolamb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/50 "2004-12-13T10:42:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m refering to the fact he called me a Tory when I am in fact a Labour supporter Ah, that would explain a lot. Blair, Blunkett et al are a bunch of authoritarian arseholes too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/51 "2004-12-13T10:43:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Please tell me how the patriot act bullshit has affected you personally and I might actually give a toss. You are quite amazing. Do you ever vote (if you have ever voted) on any issues whatsoever that might affect people _other than you_? You’re the most bizarre Labour supporter I’ve ever encountered. The opinions you’ve expressed on the boards mesh with perhaps the more extreme authoritarian policies of Blunkett and Blair, but the rest of the cobblers your spout is more UKIP or BNP. I suspect that your knee-jerk support of Bush is due to similar reasons to your knee-jerk support of Labour: you don’t really think much. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/52 "2004-12-13T10:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe that if you think President Bush can engineer a stomp on civil liberties, a war against terrorism, and try and bring about an economic revival whilst acting a completely stupid manner that so many anti Bush people say, then they are contradicting themselves. I’m not sure I understand what this means. Are you saying that Bush can’t be the dimwit he is made out to be while doing the things you list? If so, that may or may not be. However, it’s not even remotely related to the question asked by Polycarp, to which you were apparently responding. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/53 "2004-12-13T11:24:42Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I don’t get this either. What’s wrong with a federal ID? Every other country has it. No every other country does not have it. **Ryan** how did you get to be so bigoted and so jaded? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/54 "2004-12-13T11:43:26Z")
If you advocate Tony Blair as Prime Minister, you are a Tory. _Tony Blair, PM = I’m Tory Plan ‘B’._ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/55 "2004-12-13T12:07:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m refering to the fact he called me a Tory when I am in fact a Labour supporter, but the thing is, just because the Tories are right wing doesn’t mean they want to trample on civil liberties, in fact its been proven to be usually the other side of the political field which has usually trampled on human rights. I already outed you on that. You’re supportive of Labour like Judas was supportive of Jesus. > [@](#): > > What tyranny!? > > Please tell me how the patriot act bullshit has affected you personally and I might actually give a toss. None of your fucking business, oh pimple on Bush’s ass. I should enumerate for you the vestiges of liberty like I should lob pearls into a swineherd. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t anyone ever remember World War two and the suspension of civil liberties in that regards of freedom of information and press coverage? Anyone? You’re so deep in quickshit that your eyes stink. Not only do you treat freedom like a syphilitic whore, you compare the nobility of brave men who fought Hitler to the shamefulness of cowards who send the sons and daughters of their neighbors to fight Bush’s War on Americans I Mean Terror. There ought to be a national registry for defenders of despotism so that good men can avoid you like the plague you are. Have a nice fucking day. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/56 "2004-12-13T12:20:05Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > If you advocate Tony Blair as Prime Minister, you are a Tory. > > _Tony Blair, PM = I’m Tory Plan ‘B’._ Since we’re on the subject… _Virginia Bottomley = I’m an evil Tory bigot_. 😃 And _Ryan Liam = I am lyar ‘N’_ (OK I concede that’s shit). ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/57 "2004-12-13T12:52:39Z")
Man, that’s one fucking scary article. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/58 "2004-12-13T12:56:12Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > How about [this one?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12740&c=206) Or maybe [this?](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=13079&c=207) Maybe [this](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12942&c=207) is better for you? I’m no expert, but this doesn’t look very good to me. One nitpick - flying isn’t a constitutional right. Free interstate commerce does not require flying on airplanes… you have only a right to freely cross state lines which is guaranteed by the Constitution. That is the one place the ACLU has oversteped. All the rest of the concerns raised are incredibly valid. [/nitpick] On with the pitting! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/59 "2004-12-13T13:02:39Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Thanks for sharing your well thought-out position on the matter. You provide us with an excellent example of ‘intellectual discussion’! :rolleyes: Brutus - this is the pit. I wouldn’t come here for rationed discourse, really. I come here for the Gladiator games… ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/60 "2004-12-13T13:29:34Z")
As to the OP - yes, this is freedom. It’s what you get when your commander in chief elects to cancel all training for ‘nationbuilding’ forgetting that US soldiers are in fact trained to kill and survive, not act as policemen and women… Scary, isn’t it… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=4)