# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/81 "2004-12-13T22:59:37Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > LK, > Sorry but I don’t talk about the terrorist activities of the State trained, sponsored and entertained US terrorist organisation commonly named the CIA. > > I ask for agreements = international treaties > signed between the USA and every government of every sovereign nation in the world, > giving the USA the rigth to act inside every sovereign nation in the world, > overuling the laws of every nation of the world replacing them with the US jurisdiction, be they in line with the laws of said nations of the world or not. > Hence agreements that the USA can act as if the USA is the Law, police and law enforcement in and for every nation of the world > hence stating that the USA **is** it is the Law, the police force and law enforcement authority inside every sovereign nation in the world, > and therefore can enter every nation of the world unhindered by the laws of said sovereign nations, > in order to arrest and abduct every citizen of every nation and in every nation of the world, > in order to bring these citizens of sovereign nations into US custody outside the sovereign nation where the arrested is a citizen of, > subjecting the citizens of every nation in the world to whatever the US likes to do with every citizen of every nation of the world. > Salaam. A Lets get this straight Aldebaran, even if this is what America does, what makes you think America is so special into thinking that it most possibly couldn’t abuse its position? What makes you judge on how America acts and performs on the World stage? Give me examples of Islamic empires which haven’t abused their positions and status of power, give me any example actually where a state or large union or even empire hasn’t abused its opportunities or status for one reason or another. To regard America as a special case is insulting and laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/82 "2004-12-13T22:59:56Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > LK, > Sorry but I don’t talk about the terrorist activities of the State trained, sponsored and entertained US terrorist organisation commonly named the CIA. You missed my point. The CIA can and will do just about anything they want, international treaties be damned. No need for the US military, or “Heroes” as you call them. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/83 "2004-12-13T23:13:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And what I want to know is why you are getting hysterical over nothing, just some legislation designed and proposed to protect and preserve our freedoms and rights in the long term. Will it? Or will it reduce our liberty in the long term? > [@](#): > > How about at least a campaign against such ‘erosion’ of civil liberties? That’s what the [ACLU](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207) is for. Note: I was solidly on your side prior to being stuck with Bush for four more years. The Patriot Act will most likely end up being permenant and that prospect I find disquieting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/84 "2004-12-13T23:13:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > you’re accusing president Bush of trampling on Human freedoms, I’d like to know how he’s done any worse than any other president in Americas history. Jose Padila? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And what I want to know is why you are getting hysterical over nothing, just some legislation designed and proposed to protect and preserve our freedoms and rights in the long term. George Orwell called: he wants his schtick back. Seriously, by what strange alchemy do we protect our freedoms by taking them away? How do we ensure long term sustainability of our civil society if we strip it of freedoms and rights in order to protect those freedoms and rights? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > What I see in this thread is just another fucking useless attack on the Presidents administration. I’d agree they seem to be largely useless. Bush does what he wants, the nation slumbers, seethes, or celebrates. And the gears grind on. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > What I don’t see is the money where the mouth is, like for instance, if this bothers you all so much, wheres the protest? Isn’t this a ‘protest’? Or do you need to march in the streets and possibly be arrested in order to make a largely futile gesture? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Wheres the actual protesting outside city hall, making people aware of whats going on? I prefer message boards. It’s warmer next to my computer and I can drink tea. Plus, no tear gas. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > How about at least a campaign against such ‘erosion’ of civil liberties? Okay. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Hypocrisy at the highest amount, you all whine on about losing your rights, but none of you are actually prepared to put the neccessary effort into preserving them. Pshaw. If we’d figured out how best to not lose them and raise public awareness and affect positive change, we’d have done all that by now. It’s not as easy as you make it sound. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That may well be true, but when the people don’t want these monsters to have any more right to try and resist and explain away their terrible crimes, them being regarded as human beings goes out of the window. I don’t give a flying fuck what those people want. The Rule of Law demands that all people are equal before the law. Or would you be willing to give up **your** right to a fair trial because lots of people thought you were a monster? Every human has a right to defend themself in a court of law, and yes, resist and explain. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/85 "2004-12-13T23:22:01Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > Essentially, the US government has decided it can detain anyone, worldwide, for what **they** think might be terrorist activities, detain them without appeal, access to consel or without the ability to review the evidence against them. I think that pretty much covers the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments to the US constitution. Granted, the government is talking about foreigners, but it does concern me that the US government would even presume to give itself such powers. That is the erosion of personal liberties I was speaking of, the assumption of power that is clearly outside of the government’s domain. AFAIK, the American gov.t refused to join the ICC because they didn’t want the international community to be able to hold Americans liable for war crimes. The article here, though, seems to put forward the idea that Americans can hold citizens of other countries liable - even for things that aren’t even crimes. Why should the USA be the ones to set the rules of ‘justice’ for the world? While at the same time wanting to be immune from trial for war crimes themselves - doesn’t seem much like justice to me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/86 "2004-12-13T23:26:56Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > P.S. > > However, **Liberal** , wouldn’t you be not lobbing those pearls into a herd of swine, rather than a swineherd, or have I missed an ironic interpretation of a proverb. it’s just the image of lobbing into the swineherd that throws me a little. Princeton’s _WorldNet_ 2003 defines the terms as either a herder or his herd of swine. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/87 "2004-12-13T23:49:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But you did mean that, the Labour party is headed by Blair, who has aligned himself and his party with some of President Bushes policies, henceforth you attack my stance and question my views because I support Labour, in some hope of trying to catch me out. Stop pretending to be more stupid than you actually are. You suggested that I misspelled Blair: “oh sorry in your words Bliar”. You are not only a coward, but a dishonest coward. > [@](#): > > doesn’t matter, you’re accusing president Bush of trampling on Human freedoms, I’d like to know how he’s done any worse than any other president in Americas history. Why, are you holding a contest? Not that it will make a dent in your thick skull, but have someone read to you the greatest speech by a politician in modern times: [http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0624-15.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0624-15.htm) When you’re done with his list, here’s a list from the North Carolina Council of Churches: [http://www.nccouncilofchurches.org/policystatements/Civil%20Liberties%20and%20the%20USA%20Patriot%20Act.htm](http://www.nccouncilofchurches.org/policystatements/Civil%20Liberties%20and%20the%20USA%20Patriot%20Act.htm) > [@](#): > > And what I want to know is why you are getting hysterical over nothing, just some legislation designed and proposed to protect and preserve our freedoms and rights in the long term. What I see in this thread is just another fucking useless attack on the Presidents administration. What I don’t see is the money where the mouth is, like for instance, if this bothers you all so much, wheres the protest? Wheres the actual protesting outside city hall, making people aware of whats going on? How about at least a campaign against such ‘erosion’ of civil liberties? People _can’t_ protest, you recalcitrant dumbass. Protesting gets you blacklisted. Blacklisting qualifies you to be declared an “enemy combatant”. Being declared an enemy combatant means having your rights stripped from you like trinkets from a wealthy Jew in Auschwitz. Next stop: Gitmo. Stop acting like your question isn’t being answered. The longer the list gets, the more you will demand to see. > [@](#): > > Hypocrisy at the highest amount, you all whine on about losing your rights, but none of you are actually prepared to put the neccessary effort into preserving them. Ignorant on top of dishonest and cowardly. One or two more steps and you will be a vegetable. Luckily for us, you Christian fundamentalists are doing our work for us. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/88 "2004-12-14T00:02:51Z")
I should point out that one of the leading voices of the Democratic party – a star fundraiser and oft-mentioned 2008 Presidential candidate, Hillary Rodham Clinton – has said that she’s beginning to consider, reluctantly, a federal ID card as a necessity. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/89 "2004-12-14T00:10:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I should point out that one of the leading voices of the Democratic party – a star fundraiser and oft-mentioned 2008 Presidential candidate, Hillary Rodham Clinton – has said that she’s beginning to consider, reluctantly, a federal ID card as a necessity. > > FWIW. Hillary is merely George with a vagina. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/90 "2004-12-14T03:17:37Z")
> [@scule](#): > > I also highly object to the brutishly ignorant assertion that Sadam, Osama et al have no rights. The moment you devalue one individual enough to remove their rights, you open yourself up to devaluing anyone. Those men may be bad, may deserve punishment, but treating them as less than human, and thus heirs to the _Universal_ Declaration of Human Rights, is thoroughly despicable. Boo Hoo. As far as anyone on the SDMB knows, we are treating Saddam humanely. If/when we find OBL, on the other hand, it is my opinion, that he will be killed with extreme prejudice. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that. And if you think that makes my opinion “brutishly ignorant”, I most definitely couldn’t care less. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/91 "2004-12-14T03:30:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Boo Hoo. As far as anyone on the SDMB knows, we are treating Saddam humanely. If/when we find OBL, on the other hand, it is my opinion, that he will be killed with extreme prejudice. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that. And if you think that makes my opinion “brutishly ignorant”, I most definitely couldn’t care less. You should care, you ignorant fuck. Do you realize that killing him “with extreme prejudice” won’t do a goddamn thing, except perhaps make him a martyr to fundamentalist Muslim extremists, inspiring MORE terrorist acts? Hell, if Hitler hadn’t committed suicide, and if Mengele hadn’t escaped capture, the two of them would at least have been held for trial at Nuremberg. As it was, they managed to hold trials for the Nazis that were caught. If we could try the fucking NAZIS for war crimes, don’t you think we can do the same for some pisshole like Osama? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/92 "2004-12-14T03:48:45Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > AFAIK, the American gov.t refused to join the ICC because they didn’t want the international community to be able to hold Americans liable for war crimes. The article here, though, seems to put forward the idea that Americans can hold citizens of other countries liable - even for things that aren’t even crimes. > > Why should the USA be the ones to set the rules of ‘justice’ for the world? While at the same time wanting to be immune from trial for war crimes themselves - doesn’t seem much like justice to me. I don’t disagree with you at all! This is another reason I didn’t vote for Bush. The unilateralism in his foreign policy is scary. Under his administration, the US is acting like a bully in the international playground, simply because we got the equilvilent of a black eye back on Sept 11th, 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/93 "2004-12-14T03:51:12Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Boo Hoo. As far as anyone on the SDMB knows, we are treating Saddam humanely. If/when we find OBL, on the other hand, it is my opinion, that he will be killed with extreme prejudice. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that. And if you think that makes my opinion “brutishly ignorant”, I most definitely couldn’t care less. Yes, you’re right! We all know he’s guilty, so we don’t need to follow that nonsense about having a trial, presenting evidence, following due process and all that. String the bastard up! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/94 "2004-12-14T04:05:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hillary is merely George with a vagina. Man, I was with you until that point. Thanks for the mental picture. :eek: Ryan\_Liam, you are a spank. For starters, “pwned?” Have you suffered some sort of cranial trauma lately? After that you respond to posts with pithy lil comments. I know this is the pit, but come on. There are those of us who think our freedoms, and those of others, are worth protecting even if it means a slight increase in risk of a terrorist attack. Heck, if we were actually fighting the war on terror instead of losing valuable soldiers in Iraq we may not even need the patriot act. People always say “As long as it doesn’t happen to me” until they get the knock on their door. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/95 "2004-12-14T04:18:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You should care, you ignorant fuck. Do you realize that killing him “with extreme prejudice” won’t do a goddamn thing, except perhaps make him a martyr to fundamentalist Muslim extremists, inspiring MORE terrorist acts? > > Hell, if Hitler hadn’t committed suicide, and if Mengele hadn’t escaped capture, the two of them would at least have been held for trial at Nuremberg. As it was, they managed to hold trials for the Nazis that were caught. If we could try the fucking NAZIS for war crimes, don’t you think we can do the same for some pisshole like Osama? Jane you ignorant slut! We’ve been trying to kill OBL since before 9/11. What’s the difference if he were killed by a cruise missile in 1998, a daisy-cutter in Tora Bora in 2001, or a well placed shot between the eyes today? ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/96 "2004-12-14T04:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Pwned whoa, whoa, whoa. Taking it back to five months ago, are we? Pretty gutsy, but I don’t think that’s old enough to be considered ‘retro’ yet. Loser! Loner!! What-ever!!! [insert appropriate “L” hand gestures] ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/97 "2004-12-14T04:26:22Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > Yes, you’re right! We all know he’s guilty, so we don’t need to follow that nonsense about having a trial, presenting evidence, following due process and all that. String the bastard up! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: yourself. This is war, not a criminal investigation. BTW, what should FDR have done on 12/7/41, impaneled a Grand Jury? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/98 "2004-12-14T04:56:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Boo Hoo. As far as anyone on the SDMB knows, we are treating Saddam humanely. If/when we find OBL, on the other hand, it is my opinion, that he will be killed with extreme prejudice. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that. And if you think that makes my opinion “brutishly ignorant”, I most definitely couldn’t care less. Actually, that particular opinion of yours is not especially significant. Almost every single post you make confirms your ignorance—this is just one more piece of shit to add the pile. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/99 "2004-12-14T05:13:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, that particular opinion of yours is not especially significant. Almost every single post you make confirms your ignorance—this is just one more piece of shit to add the pile. Aw, now you’ve gone and hurt my feelings. You’re mean. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Milkman\_Dan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Milkman\_Dan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milkman_Dan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/100 "2004-12-14T05:21:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If we could try the fucking NAZIS for war crimes, don’t you think we can do the same for some pisshole like Osama? You would think so, but unfortunately things like due process have become irrelevant in the Repugs’ scheme of things. Since actual facts are a barrier to their need to dictate reality to people, denying someone a fair trial out of spite is a perfectly logical decision from their standpoint. You can argue with them until you’re hoarse, but unfortunately it probably won’t make a difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=6)