# Is this freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447 "2004-12-12T14:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/101 "2004-12-14T05:22:25Z")
[Freedom](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=5&u=/nm/20041213/pl_nm/arts_monkeys_dc) > [@](#): > > A portrait of President Bush using monkeys to form his image led to the closure of a New York art exhibition over the weekend > … > “We had tons of people, like more than 2,000 people show up for the opening on Thursday night,” said show organizer Bucky Turco. “Then this manager saw the piece and the guy just kind of flipped out. ‘ **The show is over. Get this work down or I’m gonna arrest you,** ’ he said. It’s been kind of wild.” ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/102 "2004-12-14T05:23:47Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Freedom](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=5&u=/nm/20041213/pl_nm/arts_monkeys_dc) What does this have to do with government policy? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/103 "2004-12-14T05:28:09Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > What does this have to do with government policy? The government’s policies encourage the proliferation of jackbooted thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/104 "2004-12-14T06:06:13Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > :rolleyes: yourself. This is war, not a criminal investigation. > > BTW, what should FDR have done on 12/7/41, impaneled a Grand Jury? :smack: If it is war, then who, exactly, are we at war with? What nation? What group of people have declared war against us? The attack on Pearl Harbor as a deliberate act of war by the Japanese governmant and military against the US, two sovereign nations engaging in warfare. The Sept. 11th attacks on the WTC and Pentagon were done by a group of individuals acting in their own interests is a display of guriella (sp?) warfare. To my knowledge, who was directing them and for what purpose has never been fully established, tho, from what I understand bin Laden is the most likely candidate. I’m not sure on this point as I’ve not had a chance to review the evidence. I’ll agree, it probably \*\*was[b/] bin Laden. Even the Nazis, at Nuremberg were a change to present a case for their actions, dispicable as they were. Should bin Laden be caught, why wouldn’t he be given the same opportunity? What are you looking for, the real mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks or vengence? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/105 "2004-12-14T09:33:04Z")
So no-one is actually going to try and defend the policy that my post was about? All we’re going to get is misspelt insults from **Ryan\_Liam** and the occasional irrelevance from the few Bush supporters who showed up? Come on. Isn’t there one of you who thinks this is a good thing and can defend it intelligently? And if not, why the fuck aren’t you protesting? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/106 "2004-12-14T11:00:38Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > No, I understand your point, and I’m really not arguing with you (see, I’m smiling ----\> 🙂 ) > > But, I don’t think the ACLU is arguing there exists a Constitutional right to fly, but rather that the Government is overstepping it’s consitutional authority by denying the ability to fly to people it deems potentially dangerous for any reason without due process, recourse, or even notification. Fair enough… I’m smiling too, BTW 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/107 "2004-12-14T11:07:47Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > You missed my point. The CIA can and will do just about anything they want, international treaties be damned. No need for the US military, or “Heroes” as you call them. I don’t miss “the point”. The CIA isjust an other State organized criminal organisation as every secret service of every nation is, and not even a good one. I said it before, but I shall repeat it once again: Whenever a lot of innocent civilians e get blown up or killed otherwise while the obvious “target” is not even in sight from far or nearby, people say: “That must have been the CIA”. You see then also some mysterious “terrorist” group popping up out of nowhere, using a name nobody has ever heard of before, and “claiming” the responsibilty. The only ones who buy such “claim” by such newborn “terrorist” group are the ignorant Westerners and more specific the US ones, which is part of the goals of the operation. (US 1 can not organize terrorist actions, remember). On the other hand, When some innocents get blown up while the “target” is also wounded or killed or at the very least extremely lucky to be a few meters away from the killing field, people immediately recognize it and say: “That was the Mossad”. Unknown “terrorist” groups popping up out of the blue are not spotted. Occasionally the blame is put on known groups (who then dispute this), because makinf it look as if someone else did is is occasionally also useful in Israel’s politics. This also fools nobody but the Westerners, but Israel couldn’t care less about that. Whatever the CIA plots inside sovereign nations without the explicit permission of these sovereign nations comes down to illigal criminal activity under these sovereign nation’s law. Now you tell me how criminal activities organized by the CIA can make the assertions of the article mentioned in the OP come true = meaning that the USA can legally enter sovereign nations, arrest its citizens, abduct them and and can do with them whatever the US wants. All this without any of the sovereign nations on this globe having the (legal and other) means/rights to undertake actions against it. That US people take such assertions serious as if the USA really rules the world and can act all over the world as the US pleases, is once again the summum of idiotic arrogance. I would like to see all the international treaties confirming this, and then I shall withdraw my remarks about idiotic arrogance concerning those who really really believe this just because some US article says it. Is there anybody of the debaters here who has the texts of these treaties between the rest of the world and the USA? I wonder why my country still has army and police, and law making bodies and a government, since the US obviously has taken over without anybody knowing this. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/108 "2004-12-14T11:17:31Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > So no-one is actually going to try and defend the policy that my post was about? All we’re going to get is misspelt insults from **Ryan\_Liam** and the occasional irrelevance from the few Bush supporters who showed up? > > Come on. Isn’t there one of you who thinks this is a good thing and can defend it intelligently? And if not, why the fuck aren’t you protesting? I think your problem is that they are looking for the treaties I ask for. Assertions in an article are not official world policy if there is nothing that can officially makes it official policy for the rest of the world. Criminal actions planned or undertaken by the USA inside other sovereign nations does not make this any different. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/109 "2004-12-14T11:25:56Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nope 🙂 he’s been acting like a blubbering Vagina all because his arch nemisis President Bush implemented an act to protect the population at least from some serious terrorist attacks, you know once something like September 11th happens it kinda shapes your judgement and outlook and makes you think you have to act to ensure it doesn’t happen again, thats why the US has the Patriot act and thats why we got Liberal blubbering about it. Sure, sure, Bush is protecting our freedom™ by taking it away from us bit by bit… in small little bites that don’t hurt very much. After all, people who go to the library and use the internet and know how to read should be watched, monitored, and finally taken into indefinite custody if their skin is brown. We only want Nascar Dads and Security Moms making the big decisions for this country, especially seeing as how they’re so well informed by the talking heads on National News, and besides we should be just like President Junior, who don’t read and don’t need to - he talks to the Lawd and can look into someone’s eyes and decide that they’re a good and strong leader. And of course, by declaring all other nations to be Ubermensch to the Great Patriot and True Christian™ horde of blue-eyed blonde-haired Crusaders, we don’t have to worry about any finicky treaties or International Laws we violate either, huh? Guess what, dipshit? Your little island could be next. Then how much would you fellate the arrogant assholes running this show? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/110 "2004-12-14T11:30:45Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > I don’t miss “the point”. > The CIA isjust an other State organized criminal organisation as every secret service of every nation is, and not even a good one. I love this international paranoia of what the CIA is capable of… Got a joke for you - how do you know the CIA didn’t have anything to do with the Kennedy assasination? A: He’s dead, isn’t he? Really, the things people blame the CIA for and the things they actually do are so wildly different I think they must be part of a propaganda campaign… Besides, why use the CIA when you’ve got tons and tons of people willing to do it for you for the right price? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/111 "2004-12-14T11:48:18Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > > [@Liberal](#): > > > > I already outed you on that. You’re supportive of Labour like Judas was supportive of Jesus. > > > > None of your fucking business, oh pimple on Bush’s ass. I should enumerate for you the vestiges of liberty like I should lob pearls into a swineherd. > > You’re so deep in quickshit that your eyes stink. Not only do you treat freedom like a syphilitic whore, you compare the nobility of brave men who fought Hitler to the shamefulness of cowards who send the sons and daughters of their neighbors to fight Bush’s War on Americans I Mean Terror. There ought to be a national registry for defenders of despotism so that good men can avoid you like the plague you are. > > > > Have a nice fucking day. > > Man, **Liberal** is slinging some \*\*serious \*\* hash here. If it gets any better than this I’m not sure I want to know about it. **Ryan** , just admit you’ve been bitchslapped like a two dollar crack whore and go peddle your wares elsewhere, OK? Normally I wouldn’t say a word, but there are times a show of respect is due. Damn that was good. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/112 "2004-12-14T15:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Ryan\_Liam, you are a spank. For starters, “pwned?” Have you suffered some sort of cranial trauma lately? After that you respond to posts with pithy lil comments. I know this is the pit, but come on. I don’t care, I’ll say what I want, I’m still a teenager and I can get away with it, if you got a problem with that, then I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/113 "2004-12-14T15:28:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t care, I’ll say what I want, I’m still a teenager and I can get away with it, if you got a problem with that, then I don’t care. Wow, why did I waste my time with you again? Buh-bye… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/114 "2004-12-14T15:31:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m still a teenager Well Gee, I’d never guessed. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/115 "2004-12-14T15:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Stop pretending to be more stupid than you actually are. You suggested that I misspelled Blair: “oh sorry in your words Bliar”. You are not only a coward, but a dishonest coward. ??? Ah I get this tactic, the tactic of trying to act the moral superior with flawed logic, how hypocritical. > [@](#): > > People can’t protest, you recalcitrant dumbass. Protesting gets you blacklisted. Blacklisting qualifies you to be declared an “enemy combatant”. Being declared an enemy combatant means having your rights stripped from you like trinkets from a wealthy Jew in Auschwitz. Next stop: Gitmo. Stop acting like your question isn’t being answered. The longer the list gets, the more you will demand to see. rubbish, you equate the average American citizen having a picket line against a senators office of outside congress would get you at Guantanamo, like I say, you’re acting hysterical. > [@](#): > > QUOTE]Guess what, dipshit? Your little island could be next. Then how much would you fellate the arrogant assholes running this show? [/QUOTE] Yet another hysterical liberal, get your act together, if its a big a problem as you say, then do something about it. You’re the ‘moral and intellectual’ superiors here, do something intelligent about your civil liberties being curtailed. > [@](#): > > Sure, sure, Bush is protecting our freedom™ by taking it away from us bit by bit… in small little bites that don’t hurt very much. After all, people who go to the library and use the internet and know how to read should be watched, monitored, and finally taken into indefinite custody if their skin is brown. We only want Nascar Dads and Security Moms making the big decisions for this country, especially seeing as how they’re so well informed by the talking heads on National News, and besides we should be just like President Junior, who don’t read and don’t need to - he talks to the Lawd and can look into someone’s eyes and decide that they’re a good and strong leader. Great yet another attack against middle America and the middle class who have values and like to see them preserved, just as you like to see yours preserved as well. Who are you to judge these people as inferior to you just because their outlook is different from yours? Hypocrite. > [@](#): > > Wow, why did I waste my time with you again? Buh-bye… Another one bites the dust, seeya! ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/116 "2004-12-14T15:45:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Another one bites the dust, seeya! What’s the weather like on your planet? Is it nice there? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/117 "2004-12-14T17:09:35Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > I don’t miss “the point”. Yes, you did and still do by continuing to ask for treaties that obviously don’t exist. Treaties are not needed when covert operations are involved. And who conducts covert operations? The CIA. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/118 "2004-12-14T17:23:54Z")
**Ryan\_Liam** , I was wrong. You’re not a spank. You’re a twit. A little angry monkey flinging shit at whoever walks nearest. You bring nothing to a debate but a seemingly endless supply of cutesy little remarks that I’m sure you think are the wittiest thing ever written, and a remarkable unwillingness to actually debate anything. Now I’d really like you to explain what you know about american values and how you think nibbling our rights away defends them. Think you can do that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/119 "2004-12-14T19:41:38Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Come on. Isn’t there one of you who thinks this is a good thing and can defend it intelligently? And if not, why the fuck aren’t you protesting? I’ve **been** protesting for four years now. It hasn’t worked. I am tired. But I still try to raise a shout when it’s necessary. > [@GomiBoy](#): > > And of course, by declaring all other nations to be Ubermensch to the Great Patriot and True Christian™ horde of blue-eyed blonde-haired Crusaders, we don’t have to worry about any finicky treaties or International Laws we violate either, huh? Total nitpick, but, declaring other nations Ubermensch? I think you may have meant something else, as that’s one of the funniest sentences I’ve seen in a long while. “Mr. President.Do we have to worry about treaties or international law when dealing with france?” “Why, no. They are overmen to us.” > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t care, I’ll say what I want, I’m still a teenager and I can get away with it, if you got a problem with that, then I don’t care. Damn. Even in a pit-debate that’s the rhetorical equal to throwing in the towel and then going on to try to fight some more. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447/120 "2004-12-14T23:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Ryan\_Liam, I was wrong. You’re not a spank. You’re a twit. A little angry monkey flinging shit at whoever walks nearest. You bring nothing to a debate but a seemingly endless supply of cutesy little remarks that I’m sure you think are the wittiest thing ever written, and a remarkable unwillingness to actually debate anything. Not really, I know what I write is dumb, but I like to piss you all off. But I still believe you’re all crying over nothing. Patriot act is designed to protect civilians, born out of the carnage that proceeded September 11th in terms of politics and the necessary procedures to make sure it never happened again, its designed to make sure the freedoms we very enjoy are not abused in a way that would harm the United States, and thats it. A couple of wrong arrests and you all start bitching as if its comparable to a tin pot country, its not, get over it. And like I’ve said before over and over again, if its really that much of a big deal, protest against it and see where it gets you, you actually might make a difference, and if not, well you proved me wrong then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-freedom/279447.md?page=7)