# Is this guy serious? (Fasting/tax law) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2003, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323 "2003-05-20T10:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/1 "2003-05-20T10:01:01Z")
[Link](http://www.in-austin.com/death-fast/) I don’t doubt that the person doing this exists or that he is really fasting. What I’m interested in is what makes him think there is no basis in law for the income tax. What gives him the idea that the IRS is collecting taxes and the goverment is spending them - with out anyone having enacted a law to that effect? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/2 "2003-05-20T12:45:55Z")
I don’t know specifically what give shim the idea, **Mort** , but I can tell you that the idea he’s espousing is one of the same tired old nags trotted out by tax protesters all the time… that there is a “secret” way to avoid taxes, because the entire taxation system and the IRS itself is founded on some sort of massive fraud, and if you only know the right way to ask the question, the IRS, fearful of losing its status and power, will leave you alone. Of course, so far as I can tell, he’s not doing anything illegal. The link merely says he’s stopped eating; it doesn’t say he’s stopped filing. And lest anyone doubt it – the federal income tax is legal, and proclaiming yourself a citizen of a state does not negate your United States citizenship somehow. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/3 "2003-05-20T13:30:35Z")
The Tax Protestor’s FAQ: [http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html](http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/4 "2003-05-20T13:57:02Z")
Ok. I shold have dug deeper. I thought he was just convinced that there were no laws, not that the existing laws were unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/5 "2003-05-20T14:18:53Z")
Same difference. It’s all covered in the Tax Protester FAQ. They’re just variations of the same delusion. ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/6 "2003-05-20T14:21:50Z")
I had reason to drive past this corner yesterday but I didn’t see this fellow. They’re building a bank right on the coner now and I guess he’s further up the street than i could see. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/7 "2003-05-20T19:34:57Z")
What’s really silly is that this guy apparently can’t even be bothered to read section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code. Since he’s a complete loony and allegedly suicidal to boot, I’ll assume that he’s an “unmarried individual,” in which case the relevant provision is section 1©: > [@](#): > > **There is hereby imposed** on the taxable income of every individual (other than a surviving spouse as defined in section 2(a) or the head of a household as defined in section 2(b)) who is not a married individual (as defined in section 7703) **a tax determined in accordance with the following table**. . . “Taxable income,” by the way, is defined in section 63 of the Internal Revenue Code. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/8 "2003-05-20T19:59:45Z")
The Master speaks: [Is U.S. income tax invalid because Ohio wasn’t legally a state when the 16th amendment was ratified?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/9 "2003-05-20T20:17:26Z")
See also this thread:[Can I really skip paying income taxes?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151246) ---
**Author:** ![Bongmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/10 "2003-05-20T20:48:48Z")
One thing you guys are missing here, he is asking the question: “Where is my tax liability in the law?” Even after all of this he has yet to get an answer from the IRS. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/11 "2003-05-20T20:53:58Z")
Perhaps they haven’t answered because it’s a stupid question. I could ask them what the exchange rate would be if I wanted to pay my tax bill in banana peels and Oreo filling, but I doubt I’d get a response. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **The link merely says he’s stopped eating; it doesn’t say he’s stopped filing.** Maybe he’s a Breatharian. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/12 "2003-05-20T21:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bongmaster \* > \*\*One thing you guys are missing here, he is asking the question: > > “Where is my tax liability in the law?” > > Even after all of this he has yet to get an answer from the IRS. \*\* He has, actually. In fact, it’s posted on the website that the OP links. He sent an e-mail to the IRS, which responded to him. The relevant passage from the IRS reply states: > [@](#): > > The United States income tax system is one of voluntary compliance in that the government relies primarily upon the disclosure by the taxpayer of the relevant facts (Helvering v Mitchell 303 us 391, 399). The obligation to pay the correct amount of tax, however, is mandatory as enacted by congress in the various public laws comprising the Internal Revenue Code. The courts have uniformly upheld this concept. For example, in Schiff v United States, 919 f.2nd 830, 834, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals stated that The payment of income taxes is not optional and the average citizen knows that the payment of income taxes is legally required. Sounds pretty responsive to me: Congress enacted the tax code; under the tax code paying income tax is mandatory; the courts have confirmed that point. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/13 "2003-05-20T22:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bongmaster \* > One thing you guys are missing here, he is asking the question: > > “Where is my tax liability in the law?” We’re not missing that; we’re scoffing at it. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/14 "2003-05-21T00:05:03Z")
Assuming he’s about 6 feet tall or so and based on the pic of him in the chair I have a real problem believing he’s lost 50 lbs in 34 days. Sitting, fasting a chair most of the day wil let him burn about a lb a day or so at best. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/15 "2003-05-21T00:32:59Z")
I find this incredibly depressing, especially since the man compares himself to Gandi. Gandi was a hero. He inspired millions by his non-violent example, which he used to gain freedom and independence for an entire nation. This guy is ready to die because he’s … not sure of the legal basis of US taxes. :rolleyes: He could just have asked a lawyer. :smack: Still, look on the bright side (all together now: always look on the bright side of life) - soon he won’t have to pay those taxes (apart from death duties). :eek: Another example of ‘evolution in action’ (Niven + Pournelle - ‘Oath of Fealty’; or a Darwin Award? 😕 You decide, I can’t be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Bongmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/16 "2003-05-21T19:10:40Z")
I still don’t see that the IRS answered his question specifically. “…various public laws comprising the Internal Revenue Code.” Why can’t they cite them specifically? This has gone round and round again with the IRS and those that claim they have no legal right to take people’s money. I really don’t know at this point, the huge amount of info out there has me a little confused on what the actualy legalities are. But I do know that if you don’t pay your taxes then you get in trouble which is how it should be. But this guy should be entitled to an answer with a specific cite pointing to the law that makes it so, we should not have to take the word of the IRS that its that way. Hes asking them to prove his tax liability and claims they have not done so. Can anyone here give that man what he wants? ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/17 "2003-05-21T19:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bongmaster \* > \*\*"…various public laws comprising the Internal Revenue Code." > > Why can’t they cite them specifically?.. > > But this guy should be entitled to an answer with a specific cite pointing to the law that makes it so, we should not have to take the word of the IRS that its that way. Hes asking them to prove his tax liability and claims they have not done so.\*\* There are two issues here. First off, the Internal Revenue Code was last revamped entirely in 1986. It has been amended many times since then by many laws. “The Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended,” is a perfectly good way to refer to it for most people. For someone who wants to know “which specific statutes” impose tax on me, it would probably take 10 pages or so just to list each year’s amendments since 1986. This is why the IRS refers to “various public laws comprising the Internal Revenue Code.” The Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, fills a bookshelf, and that doesn’t include relevant case law, interpretations, etc. Next, the IRS is not an accounting firm. That “voluntary compliance” stuff the tax dodgers love to cite? What that means is that you have to do the leg work and (usually) calculate your own taxes with your own little computer program or calculator. The IRS can’t “prove his tax liability” because, until he reports his income, expenses, deductions, etc., the IRS doesn’t know what his liability is. As to whether the income tax is constitutional, the Tax Protestor’s FAQ and the IRS blurb cited above set out the IRS’s position. This question has been answered: he just doesn’t like the answer and refuses to accept it or he can’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/18 "2003-05-21T20:49:07Z")
Does it seem to anybody else that these guys are doing a variation on the Brady Bunch “exact words” dodge? They come up with a set of words that don’t appear in the Tax Code, and that according to them, are essential to impose a tax. They then ask over and over again where those words appear, and when they are pointed to the actual words in the statute, go “Nyah, nyah, you’re admitting that my exact words don’t appear”. Unbelievably childish, but they all seem to think they’re geniuses. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-guy-serious-fasting-tax-law/176323/19 "2003-05-23T03:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bongmaster \* > \*\*I still don’t see that the IRS answered his question specifically. > > “…various public laws comprising the Internal Revenue Code.” > > Why can’t they cite them specifically? This has gone round and round again with the IRS and those that claim they have no legal right to take people’s money. I really don’t know at this point, the huge amount of info out there has me a little confused on what the actualy legalities are. But I do know that if you don’t pay your taxes then you get in trouble which is how it should be. But this guy should be entitled to an answer with a specific cite pointing to the law that makes it so, we should not have to take the word of the IRS that its that way. Hes asking them to prove his tax liability and claims they have not done so. > > Can anyone here give that man what he wants? \*\* The IRS e-mail also gives a link to the IRS web-page. If you poke around on that a bit, you find a handy little pdf publication of the IRS, on [this page](http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=98269,00.html), entitled “The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments.” If you download it, you find that it’s about 30 pages of detailed responses to a wide variety of goofy arguments about the validity of the income tax. One part of it seems to directly address this guy’s question: > [@](#): > > **The Law:** The requirement to pay taxes is not voluntary and is clearly set forth in section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code, which imposes a tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates, and trusts as determined by the tables set forth in that section. (Section 11 imposes a tax on the taxable income of corporations.) Furthermore, the obligation to pay tax is described in section 6151, which requires taxpayers to submit payment with their tax returns. Failure to pay taxes could subject the noncomplying individual to criminal penalties, including fines and imprisonment, as well as civil penalties. In discussing section 6151, the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals stated that “when a tax return is required to be filed, the person so required ‘shall’ pay such taxes to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed at the fixed time and place. The sections of the Internal Revenue Code imposed a duty on Drefke to file tax returns and pay the . . . tax, a duty which he chose to ignore.” United States v. Drefke, 707 F.2d 978, 981 (8 th Cir. 1983). So, the IRS has sent him an e-mail in response with a general reply, given him the link to their web-page, and on the web-page is a 30 page booklet debunking all the common tax myths, with oodles of legal cites. **Rube’s** got it right - these guys don’t really want the answer. They don’t like the answer they’re getting, and so pretend they’ve not been answered.