# Is This Homophobic or Standing Up to an Unwanted Advance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132 "2001-01-02T20:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/21 "2001-01-02T23:46:52Z")
Instead of slugging the guy, Bill, just try shoving him away, and saying, “Let go, pervert!” But no, it’s not homophobic at all. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/22 "2001-01-03T00:32:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lenin \* > \*\*I’m really starting to detest all this political correct crap. > > My answer: Why should a homosexual man be given extra rights, such as the right to impede other people’s right to happiness? It’s not unlike affirmative action: In an effort to make things equal, they decide to give a group of people more power.\*\* What politically correct crap? What politically correct person is putting foward the idea that homosexuals should be given extra right? On the contrary everybody seem to be saying this: \*\* > [@](#): > > If a man pinches a woman’s butt, he attempting to gain sexual pleasure at the expense of the woman’s happiness, no? It’s the same thing if a homosexual man pinches the butt of another man. Therefore, it’s also sexual harrasment. > > \*\* I’m really starting to detest people setting up paper tigers in the name of being anti- politically correct. (I’m not saying you were doing that, Bill. Not necessarily.) ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/23 "2001-01-03T00:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lenin \* > If a man pinches a woman’s butt, he attempting to gain sexual pleasure at the expense of the woman’s happiness, no? It’s the same thing if a homosexual man pinches the butt of another man. Therefore, it’s also sexual harrasment. Actually, it’s not sexual harrasment unless it occurred in the workplace or, under a slightly incorrect application of the term, a school. In the rest of the world, butt-pinching is known as assault. (It’s also assault in the workplace, etc.). > [@](#): > > My answer: Why should a homosexual man be given extra rights, such as the right to impede other people’s right to happiness? It’s not unlike affirmative action: In an effort to make things equal, they decide to give a group of people more power. What’re ya smoking, son? And can I have a toke? I’ve done some pretty intensive research on gay rights and the state of the law, and I have yet to uncover a law in any U.S. jurisdiction that authorizes gay men to pinch butts. If gay men do it, they’ve committed assault. There are no “extra rights” granted here. As for your analogy to affirmative action, my learned response is: Huh? > [@](#): > > I’m really starting to detest all this political correct crap And I’m really starting to detest inapposite, irrelevant, and gramatically incorrect usage of the phrase “political **ly** correct”. So I guess we’re even. Sua ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/24 "2001-01-03T00:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > > In my younger days, I occasionally got pinched or kissed when I did not want such attention. I usually punched or kicked the guy (it was always guys, btw). I was never charged with assault, though I suppose I could have been. As I’m under 5’2", I imagine the guys didn’t want to admit that they’d been decked by such a small woman. How _you_ doin’? 😃 Sua ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/25 "2001-01-03T01:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > You start out saying something stupid, but manage to convert your own thread into something interesting and intelligent. Keep up the good work! \ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/26 "2001-01-03T01:11:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > woman stabs husband, while she’s stabbing him, he chokes her, she dies. He’s convicted of homicide (should have/could have stopped choking when she lost consciousness). Homicide is illegal is Michigan? I find that hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/27 "2001-01-03T01:14:43Z")
Who cares. Walking up to someone and pinching their butt is wrong. But a woman slapping a man for piching her butt, or a man decking another man for pinching his butt is worse. Can’t we figure out a way to resolve problems without hitting each other. I guess evolution is on hold. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/28 "2001-01-03T01:51:23Z")
Now that the OP has been disposed of, some additional comment: 1. I believe that what may have confused **Wildest Bill** is the fact that some gay-bashing incidents, incuding some celebrated ones, appear to have resulted from unwanted advances by gay men on straight ones. Examples - the guy from the Jenny Jones show, and (I think) Matthew Sheppard. But the situations are not analogous to those described in the OP, as they resulted from subsequent rage rather then self defence (and would not not have been tolerated from a woman either). 2. There is definitely a double standard from a _social_ perspective between female-on-male violence as opposed to male-on-female. This in part due to the historical difficulty that woman have had in repelling unwanted advances, as suggested earlier by **Lynn Bodoni’s** post. Also the idea expressed by **Scylla** seems to be engrained into societal conciousness (and has enormous consequences in domestic violence situations). ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/29 "2001-01-03T02:06:00Z")
So, basically, it sounds to me like some people are trying to create Yet Another Specious “Special Right” of Homosexuals; this time it’s the Right to Pinch Butts Without Getting Slapped. I’m curious, though. Is it ok for a woman to slap another woman who pinches her on the butt? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/30 "2001-01-03T02:10:17Z")
I think it would be. I’d slap anyone who pinched MY butt! Look, but don’t touch! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/31 "2001-01-03T02:39:12Z")
Straight guy pinches girl, she slaps him: Justified, self-defense against sexual harassment and battery. Gay guy pinches straight guy, straight punches gay: justified, self-defense against sexual harassment and battery. Straight guy goes up to gay guy, punches him for no apparant reason: homophobia. stoid ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/32 "2001-01-03T03:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*So, basically, it sounds to me like some people are trying to create Yet Another Specious “Special Right” of Homosexuals; this time it’s the Right to Pinch Butts Without Getting Slapped. > > \*\* Oh firchrissake. What people? Who, other than lenin, has brought up anything of the kind? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/33 "2001-01-03T05:47:25Z")
Another mind-numbing thread from **Bill**. Wait, let me sit down, I may swoon… If anyone pinches someone’s butt without permission, it’s harassment. Period. Gender is irrelevant. If that someone turns around and assaults that person, they may be morally just in defending their person, but I think slapping, punching, or anything other than a _small_ physical abuse is uncalled for (and that’s when we get into gray areas of assault vs. self defense). So, no, if a guy pinches another guy’s butt and the pinchee pushes the pincher off, he’s not a homophobe, and I don’t think even the most radical liberal would question that. If the pinchee beats the living daylights out of the pincher, then there’s something more going on than just rebuking a pass, and, in that case, the guy may, indeed, be a homophobe, but he still had a right to tell the pincher to step off. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Jeremytt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/839c29/32.png) [@Jeremytt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeremytt)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/34 "2001-01-03T05:49:31Z")
I agree with Stoid. There’s a definite difference. If a straight guy punches a gay guy who pinches him, he doesn’t like what the gay guy DOES. That’s not homophobia, IMHO. If a straight guy punches a gay guy for no reason but the fact he’s gay, he doesn’t like what the gay guy IS. That’s homophobia. Completely different… ---
**Author:** ![Fletch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@Fletch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fletch)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/35 "2001-01-03T06:20:35Z")
Moral of the story: Just keep your hands to yourself. My $00.02 ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/36 "2001-01-03T14:01:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by betenoir \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > > \*\*So, basically, it sounds to me like some people are trying to create Yet Another Specious “Special Right” of Homosexuals; this time it’s the Right to Pinch Butts Without Getting Slapped. > > > > \*\* > > Oh firchrissake. What people? Who, other than lenin, has brought up anything of the kind? \*\* Damn you, **betenoir**! You keep beating me to the punch! **Kelly** , did you in fact _read_ any of the posts here before you responded? In GD, that part of the process usually helps. Sua ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/37 "2001-01-03T14:42:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > > woman stabs husband, while she’s stabbing him, he chokes her, she dies. He’s convicted of homicide (should have/could have stopped choking when she lost consciousness). > > Homicide is illegal is Michigan? I find that hard to believe. \*\* Elaborate please? ---
**Author:** ![Eft](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@Eft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/38 "2001-01-03T14:48:10Z")
You know, I really hate it when men hit on me. @#%(\*#)( pervs. I think I’ll start preemptively punching out men whom I think are sexually attracted to women in general and me in particular. Yeah, it kind of sucks for the poor saps who had no intention of making a pass at me and in fact just wanted me to move aside so they could get a beer, but that’s life. . . . Seriously, I don’t think it’s generally a good idea to punch out _anyone_ who pinches you on the butt–male or female. First, you might miss and hit someone else. Second, grabbing the wrist and applying pressure points inflicts a lot more pain while being less likely to start a fight or get you charged with assault. Third, if it turns out to be one of your friends trying to be funny, you can more easily reverse a wrist-grab than a punch (while still making the point that that’s not funny, asshole). If someone is sexually assaulting you, that’s another matter, but IME someone pinching you on the butt is intending to be annoying, not bent on rape. **KellyM** , that’s a good question about whether it’s okay for women to slap/punch women who pinches her on the butt. As you’d guess, I’d say no, since I don’t think that a punch is a good response in any case; I have an idealistic belief that adults can resolve most problems without hitting each other. However, I’m willing to cut women more slack than I am men in any case. Perhaps it’s just that women are much more careful about who they touch unasked (the woman who kissed me when I wasn’t expecting it–I was talking to a friend of hers at a party–mistook me for someone else and was horribly embarrassed when she discovered the case of mistaken identity), but I’ll cut women more slack than I will men. To a point. I reserve the right to do the wrist-grab and the Look of Death when appropriate. Generally, the Look of Death is all that’s needed. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/39 "2001-01-03T15:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Eft \* > However, I’m willing to cut women more slack than I am men in any case. Perhaps it’s just that women are much more careful about who they touch unasked (the woman who kissed me when I wasn’t expecting it–I was talking to a friend of hers at a party–mistook me for someone else and was horribly embarrassed when she discovered the case of mistaken identity), but I’ll cut women more slack than I will men._\* Question for the assembled posters: Is this sexist? (BTW, **Esprix** , why don’t you try ignoring **Bill’s** “mind-numbing” threads? I think I’ve seen you recommend this for people who don’t like your own mind-numbing threads.) ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132/40 "2001-01-03T15:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > > > woman stabs husband, while she’s stabbing him, he chokes her, she dies. He’s convicted of homicide (should have/could have stopped choking when she lost consciousness). > > > > Homicide is illegal is Michigan? I find that hard to believe. \*\* > > Elaborate please? \*\* I think he thinks he’s being clever, trying to point out the legal distinction between “homicide” (the killing of a human being) and “murder” (the unlawful killing of a human being). The category “homicide” includes the crimes of murder, manslaughter, and other crimes. However, his reach exceeds his grasp. According to section 750.324 of the Michigan Penal Code, “Negligent Homicide” is indeed a crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-homophobic-or-standing-up-to-an-unwanted-advance/48132.md?page=3)