# Is this how Jews felt in pre-Nazi Germany? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 6, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071 "2022-12-06T00:35:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/101 "2022-12-06T20:37:21Z")
My partner was driven out of rural Ohio on death threats. People there take their hatred seriously. OP if you’re queer or a visible minority then you might have to consider moving. If you aren’t, well, they’ll come for the queers first. Help your fellow humans if you can. Even disregarding motives, acts like the power substation attack in NC put everyone in danger of right wing extremism. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/102 "2022-12-06T20:40:04Z")
To answer the question directly - no, it would have to get a lot worse for that. But it can. And it will get worse if unresisted. The scary part about fascism is how fucking banal it is. Morally despicable acts become normalized. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/103 "2022-12-06T20:40:56Z")
How did modern countries become fascist or totalitarian? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/104 "2022-12-06T20:47:35Z")
It’s a mystery. No chickens little. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/105 "2022-12-06T20:48:30Z")
Many countries become dictatorial or fascist every decade. Nazi Germany rose to power as a reaction to the internal contradictions of unrestrained capitalism and the harsh punishment of WW1 surrender. WW1 itself being caused by the contradictions of a fractured multi power Europe in the late stage of capitalism. America has been the center of gravity since WW2. In that time the US has installed genocidal dictators in many counties such as Indonesia. We export fascism. Empires decline when they run out of frontier. Then the terror turns inward. The Iraq War was a last gasp attempt at getting more frontier. It failed. America has no one to turn its guns on besides itself. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/106 "2022-12-06T20:50:04Z")
The only saving grace long term is that fascism itself is a self defeating and contradictory ideology. But going through all that is painful for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/107 "2022-12-06T20:55:32Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Godwin was right in this instance. > **[The creator of Godwin’s Law explains why some Nazi comparisons don’t break...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/14/the-creator-of-godwins-law-explains-why-some-nazi-comparisons-dont-break-his-famous-internet-rule/)** > > "I have been very careful to avoid policing how people invoke it,” Mike Godwin said. “But this was a no-brainer.” Yes, he was. Unfortunately, some people take the entirely wrong idea as to what he said, and apply it inappropriately. Often, they will then declare themselves the winner and smugly pat themselves on the back as they take a victory lap out. > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > I posted from personal experience about the locale of the OP. So, you know where the OP lives and you personally know his neighbors? If so, then you and him have different opinions on these people you know. In that case, based on your constant misunderstanding of what people have actually said in this thread, I’d side with his interpretation. If not, then your personal experience was completely irrelevant and added nothing useful to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/108 "2022-12-06T20:57:15Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Empires decline when they run out of frontier. Then the terror turns inward. The Iraq War was a last gasp attempt at getting more frontier. It failed. America has no one to turn its guns on besides itself. I thought the USA went to war with Iraq because they tried to kill Bush’s daddy. Are you suggesting that fascist and totalitarian governments are set up from outside the country rather than internal politics? I would suggest countries turn totalitarian by a guy who wants to be president for life. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/109 "2022-12-06T20:57:21Z")
One of the things with these discussions is that it does not need to get to the point of the second coming of the Nazis (though yeah, hearing celebrities be Nazi apologists and seeing Nazi paraphernalia and iconography being used as “cool symbols” does NOT help at all). There were plenty of fascist-nationalist regimes who did not get to _that_ psycho level where you would not want to live, either. It doesn’t have to get to _that_ to be a cause for fear, and we don’t even have to go abroad or outside living memory. _In a large part of the US of A_ people still alive today grew up in a stratified society where Everyone Knew Their Place (including what literal places not to be in past sundown), “Christian ways” were hypocritically enforced in an “honor culture” social structure where deadly force was easily justified, with Company Towns where you’d shut up and obey or starved, or communities where a few families were in charge and God help if you crossed them, virtual one-party governments based on disenfranchisement, and “unofficial” armed groups targeting those who Did Not Know Their Place to make examples and teach lessons, confident in that the Sherriff, Judge and Jury would have their back. It doesn’t gave to be trucking whole households of your neighbors off to camps. It didn’t have to be, back then ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/110 "2022-12-06T20:59:13Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > People of every political persuasion have predicted [_The sky is falling!_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny) for as long as I can remember. Either you don’t remember back very far, or you just don’t remember well. Nutpicking some random people that made incorrect claims as a way of invalidating current claims by different people is a complete falacy of logic. It would be like telling a NASA researcher that you’ve seen people with billboards saying the end is coming, so you won’t believe them when they say an asteroid is heading towards us. Sure, you may be tired of it, but wearing people down until they no longer maintain vigilance against authoritarianism is _exactly_ the playbook. And you are exactly being played. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/111 "2022-12-06T21:00:11Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > The scary part about fascism is how fucking banal it is. The scary part is the number of people who think that _they_ won’t be affected, so they go along with it, while admonishing those who try to resist it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/112 "2022-12-06T21:01:18Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > The only saving grace long term is that fascism itself is a self defeating and contradictory ideology. Do we know this? Fascism was defeated from the outside, not the inside. Once it gets a grip, I don’t know that it _can_ be overthrown from the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/113 "2022-12-06T21:03:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do we know this? Fascism was defeated from the outside, not the inside. Once it gets a grip, I don’t know that it _can_ be overthrown from the inside. Spain got past Franco and turned itself into a modern democracy without being conquered by an outside force. Granted, it took thirty nine years. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/114 "2022-12-06T21:08:00Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > This is odd. I don’t think there’s a single US county that doesnt appear on hundreds of maps. Not on the map that I posted. For some reason, the NYT map didn’t include any counties in Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/115 "2022-12-06T21:11:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Spain got past Franco and turned itself into a modern democracy without being conquered by an outside force. Fair enough, but there was still a fair amount of pressure from the outside. > [@Miller](#): > > Granted, it took thirty nine years. And the death of Franco. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/116 "2022-12-06T21:12:03Z")
Oh… i see now. I had read it a bit disjointedly. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/117 "2022-12-06T21:12:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And the death of Franco. BTW, anyone have any updates on that? ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/118 "2022-12-06T21:12:49Z")
No, those counties have a lot of different people and factions in them. The US tried to pick winners and losers throughout the Cold War. Overwhelmingly the factions they supported were right wing, played nice with international capital, and suppressed the local population. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/119 "2022-12-06T21:13:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But I still want to know from the OP why pre-Nazi Germany. Is he implying that through further events like Trump in 2024 / further SCOTUS rulings / Pub controlled House and Senate / etc. that the US _will_ end up just like Nazi Germany? I really have no interest in pursuing a conversation like this, because it always goes the same way: 1. We are challenged to defined fascism 2. It turns out that the only acceptable definition of fascism is an exact repeat of things that happened in the past, but have not yet happened. 3. Failed or suppressed events do not count as fascism. And fascist coup that didn’t succeed isn’t really fascist. This is why those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. They refuse to admit the parallels until they’ve already happened, and then it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071/120 "2022-12-06T21:16:11Z")
I don’t think we can know definitely because of what happened to Germany and Italy. The 3rd Reich economy was not managed well at all and could not have sustained itself without conquest. Internal contradictions bring about the wars and outside forces in the first place. The US was neutral to supportive of Nazi Germany prior to the 1940s. Doesn’t hurt to mention how many nazis the US pardoned and brought into the government under Operation Paperclip. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-how-jews-felt-in-pre-nazi-germany/976071.md?page=7)