# Is this illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 11, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060 "2002-04-11T17:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SandWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/1 "2002-04-11T17:38:02Z")
Hey All, After reading this… [http://www.techrepublic.com/article\_guest.jhtml?id=r00620020405nor01.htm&page=1](http://www.techrepublic.com/article_guest.jhtml?id=r00620020405nor01.htm&page=1) I have a few questions. You buy a CD. 1. Is it legal to listen to the CD at home? 2. Is it legal to listen to the CD in your car? 3. Is it legal to listen to the CD in your cube at work? 4. Is it legal to lend the CD to a friend? Now you rip the CD into mp3’s and make a Data CD containing the mp3’s. You own the source CD from which the mp3’s came. 1. Is it legal to listen to the Data CD at home? 2. Is it legal to listen to the mp3’s from your hard drive at home? 3. Is it legal to listen to the Data CD in your car? 4. Is it legal to listen to the Data CD at work? 5. Is it legal to copy the files to your own work computer and listen to the music? 6. Is it legal to lend the Data CD to a friend? I feel the answer to all the above should be, yes, it is legal. However, I want to know for sure so I don’t get fired, or anyone else fired. I live in the United State, Northern CA. Thanks, -Sandwriter ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/2 "2002-04-11T18:50:59Z")
1-4 – Yes. If you own a CD, you can play it wherever you want. The rest are more problematic and depend on whether the copyright holder decides to sue, and also how the court ends up ruling. However, copyright law considers it a violation when you rip the CD, not when you play it. Nowhere are you granted the right to make copies without permission\*. So if you want to rip a CD, you’re violating the law. Playing it has nothing to do with copyright or any other rights. If someone decides to sue you, you could be out a lot of money. \*If anyone cares to argue, they’d better quote the relevant sections of the law, not the urban legends they might have heard about this. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/3 "2002-04-11T20:01:44Z")
Possibly more to the point: while you’re violating the law merely to rip an MP3 from the CD, if you simply play it in your home or car, there’s really no way for your scofflaw antics to become public enough knowledge for the record companies to file a lawsuit, or even to know that they should. But if you loan that copy to a friend, the matter is out of your hands. Again, if he just listens to it & gives it back, nobody else should ever know … but if he makes a copy for himself while he has it, or makes copies for other friends, or lends his copy, or makes the MP3 available on Gnutella etc., the investigation could well lead back to you … None of this is relevant, legally speaking. Running a stop sign is just as illegal at 3 A.M. on a two-lane road in the middle of nowhere as it is at 7 A.M. in front of a busy Dunkin’ Donuts. But the former is infinitely less likely to get you a ticket than the latter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Texas\_Dex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d2c977/32.png) [@Texas\_Dex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texas_Dex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/4 "2002-04-11T20:22:00Z")
I believe that everyone is entitled to make one copy “for archival purposes only” of any CD that they have purchased. I am not sure, however, wether this just applys to software on CDs or music too. ---
**Author:** ![SandWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/5 "2002-04-11T20:36:25Z")
Thanks for the responses. I have some follow up questions. 1. What if the CD isn’t being sold anymore? You want to listen to the CD, but you can’t buy it to listen to it? 2. Is it legal to record songs off the radio for personal use? 3. Is it legal to possess Re-Mixes of songs, like the extended dance version mixed by a friend down the street. 4. Is it legal to make cassette tape recordings of vinyl records for personal use? Thanks, -Sandwriter ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/6 "2002-04-11T20:41:46Z")
That article was written from a business managers POV, and doesn’t really apply to a private user. Under “Fair use”, 1 - 8 - Perfectly Legal _for personal use_. You only have to buy the work _once_. 9 - Depends on office policy. You’re still technically within the bounds of fair use, but you’d better be able to prove it to your boss. 10 - Illegal, but probably unenforceable. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/7 "2002-04-11T20:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Texas Dex \* > \*\*I believe that everyone is entitled to make one copy “for archival purposes only” of any CD that they have purchased. I am not sure, however, wether this just applys to software on CDs or music too. \*\* In the software world many companies will state in their license agreement that you may make a copy for archiving purposes. However, this is up to each company and is not federally mandated (I have been told that some state laws mandate this right, but I am skeptical and have never seen proof.) ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/8 "2002-04-11T20:56:01Z")
IMHO the basic ethical argument is **as long as only one copy is ever playing at any given time** you haven’t really broken the essense of the band’s copyright. So its when you _“loan a **copy** to a friend”_ that you’re violating the copyright. Two people can now listen to it **separately and simultaneously** without any additional payment. \ ***Disclaimer: I’ve downloaded and burned onto CDRs lots of MP3s so I’m an unethical deadbeat like everyone else. 😃** ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/9 "2002-04-11T21:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Khadaji \* > \*\*In the software world many companies will state in their license agreement that you may make a copy for archiving purposes. However, this is up to each company and is not federally mandated (I have been told that some state laws mandate this right, but I am skeptical and have never seen proof.) \*\* Fair Use is pretty well enshrined in court rulings. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/10 "2002-04-11T22:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SandWriter \* > \*\*Thanks for the responses. > > I have some follow up questions. > > 1. What if the CD isn’t being sold anymore? You want to listen to the CD, but you can’t buy it to listen to it?\*\* Don’t matter. If it is still copyrighted, it is the copyright holder, not you, who gets to decide distribution > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2) Is it legal to record songs off the radio for personal use? \*\* yes. for personal use. this is the VCR case again. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3) Is it legal to possess Re-Mixes of songs, like the extended dance version mixed by a friend down the street? \*\* it ain’t even legal to MAKE such a thing (w/o license by copyright holder) > [@](#): > > \*\* > 4) Is it legal to make cassette tape recordings of vinyl records for personal use??\*\* If the ‘backup’ rule applies, yes. I doubt the rule applies. (and, like everyone else who knows how to do it, I have cut my vinyl and tape recordings to CD) ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/11 "2002-04-11T22:27:03Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > 1. Is it legal to possess Re-Mixes of songs, like the extended dance version mixed by a friend down the street? > > * * * > > it ain’t even legal to MAKE such a thing (w/o license by copyright holder) True, in terms of trying to sell it or perform it publically. But I would argue that just making, possessing and listening to it **yourself** is a form of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/12 "2002-04-11T23:57:00Z")
I just did a quick “google” under “Fair Use”. It _is_ Federal Law: [TITLE 17 USC, CHAPTER 1, Sec. 107](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html): > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. From [this site](http://www.arl.org/scomm/copyright/uses.html): > [@](#): > > Without infringing copyright, the public has a right to expect: > > … to make or have made for them a first generation copy for personal use of an article or other small part of a publicly marketed copyrighted work… Much more discussion on [this site](http://www.nyfairuse.org/), although you should be aware that the site _is_ partisan. IRT the OP, from [NYFairuse.org](http://NYFairuse.org): > [@](#): > > Ripping CD’s to MP3 files. > This is LEGAL. Copying legally purchased Copyrighted material is a protected act under the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/13 "2002-04-12T05:08:07Z")
Question: If I buy a CD, then accidentally drop it on the street, does the person who finds it have the right to play it? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/14 "2002-04-12T12:15:26Z")
If a book is out of print, and the only place you can find it the library, and you make a photocopy of it, how does that hurt the publisher who isn’t even selling it any more? Is it illegal to ask questions about Morpheus on the SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/15 "2002-04-12T12:57:35Z")
As I thought. It is **legal** to rip your own CDs. Mojo, Maybe the publisher has plans to re-print the book? ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/16 "2002-04-12T13:39:11Z")
Ok, just so everyones on the same page. When you purchase a CD you are paying for the rights to the MEDIA, not the actual rights to the SONG. Thats where this whole argument got started. The RPAA maintains the point that they are selling you the media. The MP3 advocates say they are paying for the song. :rolleyes: It’s really an argument over semantics. When you purchase a CD you are paying for intellectual property with “full faith and credit”. Until CD burners became popular, the music industry never gave much thought to the issue. How many people owned record cutters? But now that the technology has become flawless and cheap, the record companies are scrambling to protect themselves. There has been a long running discussion on this at [MP3Car.COM](http://www.mp3car.com) in thier forums. But the crux of the argument is what are you paying for? The media or the music itself? ---
**Author:** ![SandWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/17 "2002-04-12T16:15:41Z")
If you are just buying the media, why does a CD cost more than a Cassette? Since it is cheaper to stamp out a CD than a Cassette? ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/18 "2002-04-12T16:26:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SandWriter \* > \*\*If you are just buying the media, why does a CD cost more than a Cassette? Since it is cheaper to stamp out a CD than a Cassette? \*\* Because enough people pay extra for the CD. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/19 "2002-04-12T16:44:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skippman \* > **It’s really an argument over semantics. When you purchase a CD you are paying for intellectual property with “full faith and credit”. Until CD burners became popular, the music industry never gave much thought to the issue. How many people owned record cutters? But now that the technology has become flawless and cheap, the record companies are scrambling to protect themselves.** Actually, this is old-hat, and more of the same. The industry went nuts over cassette recording too (which was then just as cheap and flawless), and lost big time. Now their dusting off all the arguments that lost before, but with a different legal, social, and technological climate, they’re doing somewhat better. There never was an effective technology for preventing the recording of cassettes, so the industry went off to sulk in the corner. Ripping requires more sophisticated tech, and the industry sees a chance to insert real barriers to copying, and is trying with great vigour to make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060/20 "2002-04-12T17:49:15Z")
Yes, but as long as there are “creative geniuses” out there, MP3’s and the technology behind them will be around. The world is just now starting to realize that the internet **IS** anarchy. I’m glad my generation is growing up with it. The 60’s had thier impact. Now, thanks to the internet the world is a much “smaller” place. Viva la revoltion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/103060.md?page=2)