# Is this illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841 "2003-04-02T00:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/1 "2003-04-02T00:58:09Z")
I strongly expect this is illegal, but am asking for someone in the know to confirm this. Is it illegal for a second hand cd store in California to sell coppies of CDs? Does it matter if the CD is in print or not? Cheers, Bippy ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/2 "2003-04-02T01:06:24Z")
Selling copies of CDs is illegal in every state whether still in print or not. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/3 "2003-04-02T01:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*Selling copies of CDs is illegal in every state whether still in print or not. \*\* Every CD I own is a copy, of the master. I buy a newspaper copy or the latest copy of _Maxim_ all the time. I also just bought a copy of Unreal Tournament for my computer. What exactly do you mean by “copies”, Bippy? ---
**Author:** ![Bandanaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@Bandanaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bandanaman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/4 "2003-04-02T01:39:19Z")
Definitely, some clarification is in order. Are these bootleg type CD’s, or unwanted CD’S up for re-sale? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/5 "2003-04-02T01:55:24Z")
Sorry, didn’t realise what I said was unclear. Yes these are CDR’s containing copies of currently copywrited material. I did say I was pretty certain this was illegal. I just didn’t want to be mistaken if there was a special case for out of print CDs. A local store, that I otherwise like a lot is doing this (selling copies of out of print CD’s including reproduced packaging) I wanted to be Certain whether or not it was illegal. Cheers, Bippyt ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/6 "2003-04-02T01:59:43Z")
illegal ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/7 "2003-04-02T02:03:51Z")
Would they be allowed to claim they bought them in good faith of the seller (I assume they got them like they get there other second hand cds) though when the CD is looked at it is obvious as the CD platters themselves are simple CDRs? ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/8 "2003-04-02T02:14:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*illegal \*\* Suppose I bought a new CD, and made a backup copy of it in case it got destroyed. Perfectly legal. Now what if the CD did get destroyed? Luckily, I still have my backup copy. I could sell the CD I originally bought, why can’t I sell the backup? I purchased the content, not the medium. Granted, I very seriously doubt what Bippy is seeing is people selling all their backups of destroyed CDs. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/9 "2003-04-02T02:21:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joey G \* > **Suppose I bought a new CD, and made a backup copy of it in case it got destroyed. Perfectly legal.** Nope. That’s a copyright violation. You have no right to make backup copies unless you’re a library. And, of course, since that assumption is false, the rest of your argument is meaningless. > [@](#): > > Would they be allowed to claim they bought them in good faith of the seller (I assume they got them like they get there other second hand cds) though when the CD is looked at it is obvious as the CD platters themselves are simple CDRs? If they bought a CD in an original case and later discovered it was a copy, they could probably avoid a lawsuit if they destroy the CD (actually, they could even if they knew the copy was illegal). However, if the CD is not an original CD, they are a copyright violation and the store can be sued for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lateralus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@Lateralus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lateralus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/10 "2003-04-02T02:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Nope. That’s a copyright violation. You have no right to make backup copies unless you’re a library. > \*\* I don’t think so. If I buy a CD, I can make unlimited copies of that CD. Once I distribute and/or sell them, however, it becomes a crime. - Lat ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/11 "2003-04-02T02:54:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lateralus \* > \*\*I don’t think so. If I buy a CD, I can make unlimited copies of that CD. Once I distribute and/or sell them, however, it becomes a crime. > > - Lat \*\* You can say that as much as you want, but it isn’t true. Take a look at the [copyright law](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/) and tell me the section that includes this supposed “right.” I’ll quote the sections that say you can’t: > [@](#): > > **Section 106** the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: > (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords; Note the phrase “exclusive rights.” That means the copyright holder is the only person to have this right. Note also that the law says “to reproduce.” The very act of making copies without permission is a violation. As far as making archive copies, the law says: > [@](#): > > **Section 108** Limitations on exclusive rights: reproduction by libraries and archives > (a) Except as otherwise provided in this title and notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement o f copyright for a library or archives, or any of its employees acting within the scope of their employment, to reproduce no more than one copy or phonorecord of a work, except as provided in subsections (b) and ©, or to distribute such copy or phonorecord, under the conditions specified by this section, (You can check the rest.) Note this says “a library or archive” – not an individual. Note also it says “no more than one copy.” Now use a little logic. Software licenses specifically grant you the right to make a copy of the software on your computer. Would they have to put in legal language to grant you that right _if you already had it_? Now, care to quote the law to back up your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/12 "2003-04-02T03:13:18Z")
Oh, you mean _MUSIC_ CDs. I thought we were talking about _SOFTWARE_ CDs. (Are you buying this? No?) :o ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/13 "2003-04-02T03:26:27Z")
(My understanding) Software in the US carries the automatic right to make an archival only backup copy. Does the same not apply to music, DVDs, etc? [SIIA](http://www.siia.net/piracy/copyright/law.asp) (Software & Information Industry Association) website, page on Copyright: > [@](#): > > Those who purchase a license for a copy of software do not have the right to make additional copies without the permission of the copyright owner, except (i) copy the software onto a single computer and **(ii) make “another copy for archival purposes only,” which are specifically provided in the Copyright Act (Section 117).** (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/14 "2003-04-02T03:29:21Z")
I remember the whole “archival purposes” legality of CD copying seems to come up a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/15 "2003-04-02T03:29:52Z")
Just a thought, but perhaps these are CDs for which the copyright has run out and not been extended? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/16 "2003-04-02T03:44:30Z")
OK, a bit more trolling through your Govts. copyright law and it’s fairly obvious that **RealityChuck** is right – no backup of music (or video). Slightly dopey question though… here I sit in front of my computer with a digital recording of… let’s see, the _Pogues_. I pop it in the CD drive and my windows media player reads it and puts music out the speakers… how exactly is this not software? Ditto DVDs on the computer… how is the DVD not software, but the cut scenes and soundtrack from my game are? Not disputing what the US law says… but it’s a bit inconsistent (IMO). ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/17 "2003-04-02T04:16:16Z")
Is it possible that the CD store is selling CDs that came from a library, and the source CDs no longer exist? Now here is where it gets hazy for me: I buy a CD, and transfer the songs to my computer as MP3s. I copy the MP3s to my portable MP3 player, so I can listen while jogging. The original CD gets destroyed, so I burn the MP3s to a CDR. At what point am I breaking the law? Also, can I make a compilation CD? How about a compilation cassette? ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/18 "2003-04-02T05:06:35Z")
If the RIAA had their way, you’d be breaking the law every time you hum the song. (And [don’t think I’m kidding](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_721008.html).) What you think is morally acceptable doesn’t even come close the what they require to fill their financial desires. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/19 "2003-04-02T05:16:50Z")
Guys? Please remember the big point, it’s illegal to sell copies of copyright materials **without the copyright holder’s permission**. It could very well be that the store has some sort of special agreement with the copyright holder that allows such sales. -lv ---
**Author:** ![Marduk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Marduk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marduk)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841/20 "2003-04-02T05:27:40Z")
This is just the way I heard it but while it never says people have the right to make a back up copy, it never defines that archives can not be personal archives. At least thats what I heard the loophole was. I’m probably wrong though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-illegal/165841.md?page=2)