# Is this incident worthy of having your kid taken away from you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605 "2012-11-30T19:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/41 "2012-12-01T14:10:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I do think that it is very likely that there is much more to the story and or dear old dad than is being reported, which would make the taking into care more understandable. CPS doesn’t talk to the press about specific cases, so it is probably safe to assume that the media reports are based primarily on the father’s side of the story, which probably emphasizes the “kids get in accidents, whataryagonnado?” aspect of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/42 "2012-12-01T14:57:00Z")
I think it’s alarmist and crazy. When I was a kid, no one would have thought twice about this, nor should they have. I would definitely try to attend to any minor injury at home before wasting time and money at a medical facility, not to mention picking up MRSA or other illness. The kid wasn’t gushing blood, running an extremely high fever, convulsing, or in any other condition that would warrant emergency medical treatment. When he couldn’t get the BB out himself, the dad took the kid to the hospital, so what could the problem possibly be? Some insist that there must be more to the story, but there are enough people on this board alone who think that this is sufficient reason to take the child away that clearly there need not be. This is how a lot of people think now, apparently. The world has gone mad. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/43 "2012-12-01T15:17:51Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > CPS doesn’t talk to the press about specific cases, so it is probably safe to assume that the media reports are based primarily on the father’s side of the story, which probably emphasizes the “kids get in accidents, whataryagonnado?” aspect of the situation. Plus due to HIPAA regulations, the hospital can’t talk about the kid’s condition either. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/44 "2012-12-01T15:20:15Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Some insist that there must be more to the story, but there are enough people on this board alone who think that this is sufficient reason to take the child away that clearly there need not be. This is how a lot of people think now, apparently. > The world has gone mad. Yeah, because clearly this means random people on a message board control CPS via the sheer force of their opinions, and there couldn’t possibly be any reason to **temporarily** take a kid into protective custody. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/45 "2012-12-01T15:47:40Z")
> [@Darryl\_Lict](#): > > I’ve witnessed a similar incident. My nutso nephew shot his buddy in the head with a BB gun. We were quite pissed off at him. I tried to dig it out of his head but it was embedded pretty firmly. Had I been on a desert isle, I certainly could have done it with a fresh exacto knife dipped in alcohol. My sister, an RN was not willing to do it, which surprised me. > > Had it been me, I’d insist that my sister cut it out… Does your sister have any training in wielding a scalpel? I didn’t get any, so I’m no more qualified than any random person on the street to perform surgery. Don’t think my nursing license came with magic knife skills…and I’m sure not gonna find out on my kid’s head, without a sterile kit and no proctor to talk me through it! Desert isle, sure. You do what you gotta do. But I’d have to flip you for it, first, 'cause you know just as much about this as I do. Maybe more, if you’ve done home surgery before. As for the OP, add me to the “probably there’s more to the story” camp. I will point out that nurses and doctors are mandated reporters in all states, and if they suspect - they don’t have to _know_, they don’t have to have _evidence_, they just have to \*suspect \*- child abuse or neglect, they have to report it. If they don’t and it later comes out that the child was abused, they can lose their license and go to jail. We’re only trained to screen for abuse and to listen to the little alarm bell that goes off in the back of our head. We’re not trained, nor is it appropriate, for us to gather copious amounts of evidence and decide if abuse is actually occurring. That’s a job for the social worker and police. It is our job and mandated by law to report the \*suspicion \*of abuse/neglect. There’s no indication in this story as to why abuse/neglect was suspected. The author would have us believe it’s because of the BB, or maybe the home surgery attempt, or maybe the delay in seeking medical treatment - even s/he isn’t willing to definitively pick one. It’s also possible the kid was grossly underweight for his height, or had multiple bruises of various ages, or an x-ray showed old undocumented bone fractures…things that trigger mandated reporting but may not have been mentioned to the reporter. We have no idea from that article, and no one except the family is allowed to talk to the press, by professional ethics and by law. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/46 "2012-12-01T15:49:48Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Yeah, because clearly this means random people on a message board control CPS via the sheer force of their opinions, and there couldn’t possibly be any reason to **temporarily** take a kid into protective custody. :dubious: Nooo, because the fact that random people on a message board profess to hold these opinions indicates that holding these opinions is not so unusual that there isn’t a good chance that CPS may be employing people with similar opinions. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/47 "2012-12-01T16:16:03Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Nooo, because the fact that random people on a message board profess to hold these opinions indicates that holding these opinions is not so unusual that there isn’t a good chance that CPS may be employing people with similar opinions. You want to know why CPS needs to take these kids into protective custody while they investigate? So the parents can’t kill them in the meantime. You know what happens if they don’t and the kid shows up dead or injured? [People start asking “why didn’t they DO something?!”](http://www.denverpost.com/failedtodeath) You just can’t win. So it’s 10 at night and she gets a call from the ER that they suspect abuse. What is she supposed to do about it right now? She can’t go knocking on neighbor’s doors to interview them right this second. Or maybe it’s the middle of the day, but she’s got a caseload of 2000 kids, 15 of which she’s already scheduled to visit today. So she asks the kid if he has an aunt or a grandfather or someone he can stay with tonight, and she fills out the paperwork to start an investigation as soon as possible. Once the paperwork is done, he’s “in protective custody.” Doesn’t mean he’s in a chain gang, in an orphanage or even in a stranger’s home. Just means he’s not going home with Dad and the social worker will look into it further to decide if this is a permanent sleep over or if he can go home again. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/48 "2012-12-01T17:15:17Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > You want to know why CPS needs to take these kids into protective custody while they investigate? So the parents can’t kill them in the meantime. You know what happens if they don’t and the kid shows up dead or injured? [People start asking “why didn’t they DO something?!”](http://www.denverpost.com/failedtodeath) You just can’t win. > > So it’s 10 at night and she gets a call from the ER that they suspect abuse. What is she supposed to do about it right now? She can’t go knocking on neighbor’s doors to interview them right this second. Or maybe it’s the middle of the day, but she’s got a caseload of 2000 kids, 15 of which she’s already scheduled to visit today. So she asks the kid if he has an aunt or a grandfather or someone he can stay with tonight, and she fills out the paperwork to start an investigation as soon as possible. Once the paperwork is done, he’s “in protective custody.” Doesn’t mean he’s in a chain gang, in an orphanage or even in a stranger’s home. Just means he’s not going home with Dad and the social worker will look into it further to decide if this is a permanent sleep over or if he can go home again. I agree and I say it sucks. The social worker is in the worst of all worlds. Best case senario, you have managed to upset a kid by insisting the stay away their home and also done real damage the trust between the parent and child. There is no limit to the worst case seanrio. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/49 "2012-12-01T17:17:27Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Nooo, because the fact that random people on a message board profess to hold these opinions indicates that holding these opinions is not so unusual that there isn’t a good chance that CPS may be employing people with similar opinions. That’s like saying, “Because some people on a message board think there must be an alien spaceship stored at Area 51, that means NASA has plenty of UFO believers on staff.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/50 "2012-12-01T17:24:52Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > There’s no indication in this story as to why abuse/neglect was suspected. The author would have us believe it’s because of the BB, or maybe the home surgery attempt, or maybe the delay in seeking medical treatment - even s/he isn’t willing to definitively pick one. It’s also possible the kid was grossly underweight for his height, or had multiple bruises of various ages, or an x-ray showed old undocumented bone fractures…things that trigger mandated reporting but may not have been mentioned to the reporter. We have no idea from that article, and no one except the family is allowed to talk to the press, by professional ethics and by law. I used to work in CPS \* , and my guess is the reason is a combination of 1. a child who was too immature to use a BB gun safely was given access to one (and the fact that he shot himself in the head is pretty much proof that he was too immature) 2. The father tried to remove it himself, although it was embedded deeply enough that he needed to use a utility knife - it’s not like he was able to remove it with tweezers. 3. When he was unsuccessful, he waited 24 hours to take the kid to the hospital. Anyone can make one bad decision. Three bad decisions in a single incident starts to look like “inadequate guardianship” , even without any other signs of abuse or neglect (although it is of course possible that there are other signs- the father certainly wouldn’t tell the reporter about them) Something else was left out of the article, possibly due to timing. The article was published Friday, but the incident happened Wednesday. I would be very surprised if CPS/the police didn’t have to either release the child to a parent or obtain a court order by Friday morning, as even emergency removals in the middle of the night generally require a subsequent court order - in my state, by the next business day. - And I was never so happy as the day I left. Parents leave out information or flat out lie when they are talking to reporters or politicians and CPS can’t correct any of it- until and unless the parents are arrested. Then and only then can the information come out through the criminal court proceedings. Meanwhile, CPS workers are either “babysnatchers” or uncaring bureaucrats who let kids die. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/51 "2012-12-01T20:55:02Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > That’s like saying, “Because some people on a message board think there must be an alien spaceship stored at Area 51, that means NASA has plenty of UFO believers on staff.” No, it isn’t. Examine the following statements: There exist a non-trivial number of people who think “X,” therefore, some people who think “X” COULD BE working for a particular state agency. There exist a non-trivial number of people who think “Y,” therefore, plenty of people who think “Y” MUST work for NASA. Do you see how the first statement is true and the second is false? Thus they are not similar in any meaningful way? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/52 "2012-12-01T22:01:05Z")
What I’m saying is that just because people online claim to have what you hold to be a “crazy” opinion, it does not necessarily follow that there may be people in power to enforce such things who do likewise. A kid in circumstances that no one outside of the kid’s family can legally or ethically discuss is temporarily removed from his home, and based on that evidence you jump right to “The world has gone mad.” Thank you for your consideration of the evidence at hand, Chicken Little. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/53 "2012-12-01T23:17:48Z")
Yes, it does follow that there MAY be people at CPS who think likewise. It isn’t as if the requirements to work there are so specialized or exclusive that there is any reason to believe they would not resemble the set of posters here who think this way. The world has gone mad because I observe this overprotective helicoptering nonsense becoming the “normal” way of thinking about the world. Was there more going on in this situation? Perhaps, but the initial question was whether THIS incident was considered worthy of taking someone’s kid away, not whether this plus unknown other circumstances were. From their replies, many here feel that this alone is sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/54 "2012-12-02T00:05:37Z")
> [@Darryl\_Lict](#): > > I’ve witnessed a similar incident. My nutso nephew shot his buddy in the head with a BB gun. We were quite pissed off at him. I tried to dig it out of his head but it was embedded pretty firmly. Had I been on a desert isle, I certainly could have done it with a fresh exacto knife dipped in alcohol. My sister, an RN was not willing to do it, which surprised me. > > Had it been me, I’d insist that my sister cut it out, even though I do have insurance, because I know there would be significant uncovered costs (actually, I’m pretty sure I’d have to pay the full cost, because my ridiculously expensive insurance makes me pay the first $2500). Plus, I just hate the idea of the expense of an ER on an insignificant injury. Actually, I’d just wait to the next day and go to the medical clinic. > > The kid had no health insurance and it would cost over a $1000 to go to the ER. Plus, we figured that it spawn a police investigation. So, we took him to the hospital, got and there was a police report and it cost my sister a thousand bucks. I think my sister managed to convince the police not to press charges. > > Yup. Your sister, being an RN, would have been liable had she dug it out and the site subsequently got infected, or anything else went wrong. She was absolutely right in not attempting to remove it outside a medical clinic. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/55 "2012-12-02T02:49:44Z")
Bear in mind, a 12 year old child was not supervised to the point that they were able to commit a **[misdeamnor](http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/23CA65E2-C55D-4E20-A660-E2CCE20E20F1/0/Ordinance_No_45991.pdf)** punishable by a $500 fine or a year in jail. :eek: (Edit: The articles state that the kid shot himself in the head inside the city limits.) [QUOTE=PDF Wichita Statute] BE IT ORDAINED BY THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE CITY OF WICHITA, KANSAS: SECTION 1. Section 5.88.020 of the Code of the City of Wichita, Kansas shall read as follows: (1) It is unlawful for any person to discharge or fire any gun, pistol, **air rifle, pellet gun, BB gun** or any other firearm within the corporate limits of the city except at any properly licensed shooting gallery or upon a pistol range or at a gun club, either of which shall be approved by the chief of police. \ (5) **Any person who violates any of the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.** (6) In addition to the penalty for the violation of this section, it shall be the duty of the municipal court judge to order any weapon seized in connection with such violation to be forfeited to the city and the same shall be disposed of by the chief of police pursuant to Section 5.88.010(7) of this chapter. Provided, however, that any BB gun forfeited to the Wichita police department may, with the general approval of the city manager, be donated to the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks for training purposes. (Ord. No. 42-636 § 2) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/56 "2012-12-02T03:13:04Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Nooo, because the fact that random people on a message board profess to hold these opinions indicates that holding these opinions is not so unusual that there isn’t a good chance that CPS may be employing people with similar opinions. > [@WhyNot](#): > > You want to know why CPS needs to take these kids into protective custody while they investigate? So the parents can’t kill them in the meantime. You know what happens if they don’t and the kid shows up dead or injured? [People start asking “why didn’t they DO something?!”](http://www.denverpost.com/failedtodeath) You just can’t win. > > So it’s 10 at night and she gets a call from the ER that they suspect abuse… I think **AnaMen** has a point, but it’s applicable to the ER not CPS. You’re right that CPS can’t ignore the report, but what was the basis for ER making it? The small set of facts referenced in the thread don’t to me constitute any basis for _them_ to “suspect abuse.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/57 "2012-12-02T03:15:30Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Bear in mind, a 12 year old child was not supervised to the point that they were able to commit a **[misdeamnor](http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/23CA65E2-C55D-4E20-A660-E2CCE20E20F1/0/Ordinance_No_45991.pdf)**… Since when is a child’s misdemeanor evidence of parental abuse? Don’t police normally take naughty children _to_ their parents? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/58 "2012-12-02T03:22:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Since when is a child’s misdemeanor evidence of parental abuse? Don’t police normally take naughty children _to_ their parents? They hold the parents to account here. The BB gun was not locked up, so the 12 year old child could get it and shoot it inside city limits. If he’d shot and seriously injured a neighbor’s cat (say with survaillance video to prove it) they’d have done the same. That’s how those who enforce the laws/statutes see it in these parts. The parent knew the law. Edit: And you are leaving out the fact that the misdemeanor is punishable by a significant fine, and/or one year in jail! The child has to go through the court system, the parent has to answer to the courts as to how the child was able to commit such a misdemeanor. (If it had been a friend’s gun at a friend’s house it might be different. Kid would still be going through the court system though.) ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/59 "2012-12-02T03:27:44Z")
^^ Leaving out that if they had video proving the kid shot a cat with a BB gun the kid would also be facing animal cruelty charges as well. Edit: That’s one reason the statutes were made in the first place. Too many little shits shooting songbirds, dogs, cats and each other. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/60 "2012-12-02T03:27:54Z")
Fine, so prosecute 'em for _that_. That still doesn’t equal abuse. _Abuse_ is much, much more than ‘non-ideal parenting.’ ETA: And leave out the imagined additional crimes, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605.md?page=4)