# Is this incident worthy of having your kid taken away from you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605 "2012-11-30T19:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/61 "2012-12-02T03:29:27Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Fine, so prosecute 'em for _that_. That still doesn’t equal _abuse_. Neglect? :dubious: It is considered a kind of neglect. Edit: As in, neglectful parenting. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/62 "2012-12-02T03:34:27Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Fine, so prosecute 'em for _that_. That still doesn’t equal abuse. _Abuse_ is much, much more than ‘non-ideal parenting.’ > > ETA: And leave out the imagined additional crimes, please. You seemed to want to get inside the heads of those who made the statutes, and so grasp how they are enforced. I’m trying to explain the reasoning I have heard/seen being a lifelong resident of Kansas. Edit: Again, here if you do not do your duty as a parent and keep dangerous things out of your child’s hands you are considered neglectful. This parent’s child not only injured himself, but committed a misdemeanor punishable by a $500 fine and/or a year in jail. I’m going to figure that it’s the “year in jail” aspect particularily that is meriting the child being removed from the home while the parent is investigated. Mind you, the child isn’t out for good. Just while they look into things. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/63 "2012-12-02T03:41:01Z")
When my son was 6, I took him fishing. He was having a great time, when he miscast and snagged a hook into the side of his scalp. I prepared to take him to the ER, but he really wanted to keep fishing. I explained what was involved in removing the hook. He asked me to do it. Using hemostats, I drove the hook the rest of the way through. Then I cut the barb off with side cutters and removed the hook. I wiped an alcohol pad over the area pre and post. Kid never flinched; it hurt me more than it hurt him. I learned later that his mom spoke to a physician about what I’d done and found my actions acceptable.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/64 "2012-12-02T03:44:47Z")
Of course, there is the chance that CPS believes the child is fibbing about shooting himself in the head. They didn’t say it was a rifle or pistol, just a “bb gun”. What if they think the Dad got the kid to lie, with the idea that a kid wouldn’t be punished as harshly for breaking the law? ☹ That might be possible. If so, that also explains why they have the kid out of the house while they sort things out. The public may never know. Edit: Again, they (various Kansas towns) put the anti-bb gun statutes in place because there were too many pets, songbirds, and kids getting injured. My little brother lost a tooth via a ricochet from a pump up bb gun. There is a chance a kid could lose an eye with that kind of play. So, the lawmakers put the statutes in place. And they’ve been in place for some time. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/65 "2012-12-02T04:09:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think **AnaMen** has a point, but it’s applicable to the ER not CPS. You’re right that CPS can’t ignore the report, but what was the basis for ER making it? The small set of facts referenced in the thread don’t to me constitute any basis for _them_ to “suspect abuse.” They aren’t required to report only abuse- they are also required to report neglect. Which generally includes a lot of issues , such as not sending a child to school, delays in obtaining appropriate medical care, failing to prevent a child from gaining access to various items dangerous to a child of that age/maturity (medications, power tools , open five gallon buckets with a few inches of liquid in them) ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/66 "2012-12-02T05:19:09Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > But it can be hard to know when a child needs to go to the ER and when they can be treated at home. Last month my daughter fell off a swing in our backyard. She cried that her hand hurt, but I figured it was just bruised. 5 days later the school nurse told me she thought it was broken, so I took her to the hospital. Sure enough the metacarpal was fractured in two places. Was I negligent in just putting ice on it and figuring it was OK for 5 days? I have broken metacarpals twice. The second time was at a ski area. I went to the ski patrol shack and the paramedic on duty assured me i didn’t have a fracture. I knew better and went to doc when I got back to town. Doc assured me I didn’t have a fracture. No doc, these two metacarpals right here are broken, and I know this because if you go back a couple years in that file you have right there, you will see that you treated me for a broken metacarpal on the other hand, and this hurts in exactly the same way. Finally convinced doc to shoot an X-ray and damned if I wasn’t exactly right. So if a paramedic and an MD can both be wrong when a lucid adult is saying “I have broken metacarpals, I know this because I have done it before.”. Then I would say you did OK for a parent. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/67 "2012-12-02T05:27:33Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Bear in mind, a 12 year old child was not supervised to the point that they were able to commit a \*\*[misdeamnor](http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/23CA65E2-C55D-4E20-A660-E2CCE20E20F1/0/Ordinance_No_45991.pdf) I don’t see this as a big deal. 12 year olds can be left by themselves. They can go out and explore the neighborhood. They can play with a friend in the backyard. At any of these times the kid could commit a misdeamnor. The kid could throw a rock through a neighbor’s window, knock over a stop sign, slash a tire, etc etc. There are a million things a kid could do that are illegal, and only a few of them would be due to parental neglect. Are people supposed to keep their eyes on their 12 year olds 24/7? Never let them explore the world on their own? Did your parents ever allow you out of their sight when you were 12? Do you consider that they neglected you? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/68 "2012-12-02T05:32:46Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > I don’t see this as a big deal. > > 12 year olds can be left by themselves. They can go out and explore the neighborhood. They can play with a friend in the backyard. At any of these times the kid could commit a misdeamnor. > > The kid could throw a rock through a neighbor’s window, knock over a stop sign, slash a tire, etc etc. There are a million things a kid could do that are illegal, and only a few of them would be due to parental neglect. > > Are people supposed to keep their eyes on their 12 year olds 24/7? Never let them explore the world on their own? Did your parents ever allow you out of their sight when you were 12? Do you consider that they neglected you? The parent did not lock up the bb gun, therby preventing their minor child from accessing it. That’s neglectful parenting. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/69 "2012-12-02T05:37:59Z")
But you said if he was not supervised enough to commit a misdemeanor, it was neglectful parenting. When my son took the door for a walk this morning, he COULD have committed a misdemeanor. If he had, would it be neglectful because he was unsupervised? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/70 "2012-12-02T06:00:54Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > But you said if he was not supervised enough to commit a misdemeanor, it was neglectful parenting. When my son took the door for a walk this morning, he COULD have committed a misdemeanor. If he had, would it be neglectful because he was unsupervised? There are several things going on in the incident in the OP. Firstly, a 12 year old boy was able to get his hands on a bb gun. Secondly he was able to get out of the house with it and somehow (according to what has been said) shoot himself in the head with it. Thirdly, the bb was imbedded in his head so deeply a utility knife could not remove it. (And the skin on a skull is pretty thin!) Fourthly, after failing at removing the bb, and having opened the site of the wound _with_ a utility knife, the parent failed to promptly take the child in for medical care, but only did so after 24 hours had passed. I am presuming the parent took the child in after 24 hours had passed because the site was swelling and showed signs of infection. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/71 "2012-12-02T07:34:36Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > The parent did not lock up the bb gun, therby preventing their minor child from accessing it. That’s neglectful parenting. In the country at eight years old me and all my friends had BB guns. We plinked at cans, birds, rabbits, and G.I. Joes with them and all without supervision once we had shown we could be trusted to obey the rules of safety . It was standard. When we were twelve we had 22 rifles and shotguns. Those we always had to have an adult about to use. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/72 "2012-12-02T07:46:45Z")
That’s the difference between country and city living though, right? ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/73 "2012-12-02T11:28:58Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > But you said if he was not supervised enough to commit a misdemeanor, it was neglectful parenting. When my son took the **door** for a walk this morning, he COULD have committed a misdemeanor. If he had, would it be neglectful because he was unsupervised? That’s an open question. Not neglectful, but certainly unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/74 "2012-12-02T14:39:46Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > The parent did not lock up the bb gun, therby preventing their minor child from accessing it. That’s neglectful parenting. This is an unjustified leap from the law you posted, which says nothing about any requirement to lock up a BB gun. We don’t even know if the BB gun belonged to the father or the child. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/75 "2012-12-02T14:49:58Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think **AnaMen** has a point, but it’s applicable to the ER not CPS. You’re right that CPS can’t ignore the report, but what was the basis for ER making it? The small set of facts referenced in the thread don’t to me constitute any basis for _them_ to “suspect abuse.” They are required to investigate, not to take a child away. That’s up to their discretion. And now the squawking about a 12-year-old left “unsupervised”… When I was 12 that was a normal age to be hired TO babysit, not to need babysitting. You can’t just watch your child every second until age 18, then expect them to magically be capable of acting like adults and living independently. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/76 "2012-12-02T18:25:13Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > They are required to investigate, not to take a child away. That’s up to their discretion. > > And now the squawking about a 12-year-old left “unsupervised”… When I was 12 that was a normal age to be hired TO babysit, not to need babysitting. You can’t just watch your child every second until age 18, then expect them to magically be capable of acting like adults and living independently. The two are not mutually exclusive: I’d hire a single 12 year old to babysit a pre-schooler for a few hours after school, but I’d never leave two (or more) 12-year olds on their own all day from 8-5. Context really matters. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/77 "2012-12-02T18:33:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The two are not mutually exclusive: I’d hire a single 12 year old to babysit a pre-schooler for a few hours after school, but I’d never leave two (or more) 12-year olds on their own all day from 8-5. Context really matters. And it depends on the 12 year old, too. My daughter at 12 could have babysat for a few hours, but I wouldn’t have let my son. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/78 "2012-12-02T20:22:48Z")
Sometimes 12-year-olds do idiotic things… Like people of all ages! A BB gun is not a deadly weapon. Are we supposed to lock up the steak knives? The lawn mower? According to **doreen** , the power tools… Basically, after you have a child, you’d better get a huge lockable safe for all your risky possessions, I guess? Maybe live without electricity so as to avoid electrocution, get rid of the cars in case they figure out how to steal them, pad the walls and bolt down the furniture… Nowhere does it say the child was seriously injured. A utility knife uses very sharp disposable blades. If a blade was new and sterilized, it would not be so different from a scalpel, and medical school is not a magical place where people are annointed with superhuman doctoring skills that no mere mortal could dream of performing. Where the dad went wrong was in going to the hospital at all – he should have tried harder to get it out himself and skipped the subsequent nonsense. The kid was put in foster care, not kept at the hospital, so obviously he was fine.If they wanted to go after the kid for illegally discharging a firearm, that would be different, though I would think his injury was probably enough to teach him a lesson. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/79 "2012-12-03T01:37:02Z")
Here’s [an article on MSNBC.com](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50036286/ns/local_news-wichita_ks/#.ULv_q-BA-Lo) with some additional information, and a picture of the X-ray. The BB is not _in_ the skull, but next to it. > [@MSNBC](#): > > “Brayden came into the room and told me he had a BB in his head,” said Zeke. [Zeke is not the Dad] > He says Wednesday night, while the boy’s dad was asleep, the kid aimed a BB gun at a Buddha statue inside the family’s home, and a BB ricocheted back at his head. > […] > “I didn’t think nothing of it it wasn’t too bad, it wasn’t bleeding real bad,” said Zeke. > They waited to tell dad Thursday morning. > He had the boy go to school with plans to take him to the doctor Saturday when he didn’t have work, but that Thursday night, Zeke tried to get it out himself when the boy asked him to. > “The hole started to heal, I thought I could lance over the top of the BB and it would fall right out,” said Zeke. > Wichita Police said he attempted to remove the BB using a utility knife. > “I used a scalpel, not a utility knife, rubber gloves and some rubbing alcohol,” said Zeke. > When it didn’t pop out, Zeke’s girlfriend took the boy to the hospital. > […] > The boy’s dad said he got a call today from authorities telling him the boy would be back home Monday. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605/80 "2012-12-03T02:11:26Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Sometimes 12-year-olds do idiotic things… Like people of all ages! A BB gun is not a deadly weapon. Are we supposed to lock up the steak knives? The lawn mower? According to **doreen** , the power tools… Basically, after you have a child, you’d better get a huge lockable safe for all your risky possessions, I guess? Maybe live without electricity so as to avoid electrocution, get rid of the cars in case they figure out how to steal them, pad the walls and bolt down the furniture… Apparently you missed the part where I said “dangerous to a child of that age/maturity” . In other words, feel free to leave your plugged-in power tools out around your 12 year old if he’s mature enough for it to be safe- not so much for the three year old. > [@](#): > > Nowhere does it say the child was seriously injured. A utility knife uses very sharp disposable blades. If a blade was new and sterilized, it would not be so different from a scalpel, and medical school is not a magical place where people are annointed with superhuman doctoring skills that no mere mortal could dream of performing. Where the dad went wrong was in going to the hospital at all – he should have tried harder to get it out himself and skipped the subsequent nonsense. No, the father’s mistake was first in having a roommate who didn’t even tell him about the BB until the next day , then in deciding the kid needed medical care but he would wait over two days to take him to the hospital. Then the roommate decides to try to dig it out without even telling the father. I can only imagine the looks on the the faces of the hospital staff when they heard this story. The neglect they reported might have been leaving the kid with this roommate, who seems to be as bright as a 12 year old. Trying to get the BB out of your own kid’s head is bad enough. But someone else’s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-incident-worthy-of-having-your-kid-taken-away-from-you/642605.md?page=5)