# Is this instance of the word 'girls' hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 4, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239 "2020-12-04T22:36:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/21 "2020-12-04T23:38:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In a professional setting, perhaps no. City driving? I’ve said worse. I can well believe that when driving along inside your own car and encountering other drivers doing something stupid, you mutter some words about them that are worse than “jackass”. However, that has nothing to do with interpersonal modes of address, since they can’t hear you. > [@octopus](#): > > Which is my issue with intrinsic so-called hate speech. How is that relevant? Nobody is policing what you say about other people in the privacy of your own car. Nobody cares that you are sitting in your car muttering hateful words about another driver who can’t hear you. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/22 "2020-12-04T23:44:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I understand what you’re saying, it just doesn’t match with my experience. My personal ideas of general appropriate behavior are based off years of experience, as are yours. You’ve offered advice, which I will take under due consideration. So far in my life, you’re in the minority. That being said I do see reason in your arguments and if I am led to believe that most people agree with you, I would change my position > > ~Max Wait, aren’t you 26 years old? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/23 "2020-12-04T23:44:42Z")
Disrespectful, maybe. Hate speech - no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/24 "2020-12-04T23:54:48Z")
_The Boys are back in town, the Boys in the band, See What the Boys in the Back Room Will Have, The Boys, etc_ When referred to _as a group_ it is generally just a way of sounding friendly and informal. _The girls in the secretary pool._ Referring to a single man by himself, “boy” is demeaning, same with “girl” unless the age calls for it. But here,the context is odd, “_mostly still girls_” altho perhaps it is literal, they are young women 17-19 yo, still referred to as “girls”. (“Young women” would be better, tho) ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/25 "2020-12-05T00:00:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > When referred to _as a group_ it is generally just a way of sounding friendly and informal. _The girls in the secretary pool._ This one is demeaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/26 "2020-12-05T00:05:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > When referred to _as a group_ it is generally just a way of sounding friendly and informal. _The girls in the secretary pool._ But that sort of usage in a business context still comes across as, at best, somewhat patronizing and diminishing. It’s no accident that your “acceptable” example is “the girls in the secretary pool”, referring to a group of workers typically viewed as lower-status and subservient and almost invariably female, rather than, say, “the girls on the Board of Directors”. The former usage simply does a better job of camouflaging the somewhat patronizing and diminishing nature of the term “girls”, because people are already used to female secretary-pool workers being referred to in a somewhat patronizing and diminishing way. If a prestigious male US judge had referred to, say, Justices Sotomayor and Kagan and the late Justice Ginsburg as “the girls on the Supreme Court”, he wouldn’t have come across as sounding “friendly and informal”, no matter how friendly and informal he was trying to be. He’d have come across as sounding like a sexist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/27 "2020-12-05T00:05:29Z")
_The Boys are back in town, the Boys in the band, See What the Boys in the Back Room Will Have, The Boys,_ are those demeaning? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/28 "2020-12-05T00:09:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _The Boys are back in town, the Boys in the band, See What the Boys in the Back Room Will Have, The Boys,_ are those demeaning? See my above response to octopus about the difference between the entertainment industry’s use of colloquialisms for the purpose of marketing entertainment products depicting fictional characters, and appropriate etiquette for modes of address for real-life people on the part of other real-life people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/29 "2020-12-05T00:10:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But that sort of usage in a business context still comes across as, at best, somewhat patronizing and diminishing. It’s no accident that your “acceptable” example is “the girls in the secretary pool”, referring to a group of workers typically viewed as lower-status and subservient and almost invariably female, rather than, say, “the girls on the Board of Directors”. There rarely are that many _people_ on a BoD as in Secretarial pool. I have seen dozens. No longer, however, in fact secretarial pools are mostly a thing of the past. However, it is a standard term “the girls in the secretarial pool” , and ‘girls" wouldnt be applied much elsewhere, and my wife sez "the girls in my knitting circle’ even tho most have greying hair. I say it is meant to sound friendly and informal, like “the boys in the band” even if some are female. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/30 "2020-12-05T00:11:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _The Boys are back in town, the Boys in the band, See What the Boys in the Back Room Will Have, The Boys,_ are those demeaning? > [@Kimstu](#): > > See my above response to octopus about the difference between the entertainment industry’s use of colloquialisms for the purpose of marketing entertainment products depicting fictional characters, and appropriate etiquette for modes of address for real-life people on the part of other real-life people. In addition to what **Kimstu** said, you say “The girls in the typing pool” - yet you wouldn’t say “the boys on the loading dock”, you’d say “the men on the loading dock”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/31 "2020-12-05T00:11:38Z")
_The boys in the band_ is not just a line used in movies, it is used to refer to a sizable band. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/32 "2020-12-05T00:13:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _The boys in the band_ is not just a line used in movies, it is used to refer to a sizable band But please do mansplain to us girls what’s demeaning to us and what isn’t. You obviously know so much more than we do. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/33 "2020-12-05T00:15:32Z")
Right, because that is not a standard expression, like “the boys in the band” or the “girls in the secretarial pool”. Even females use “girls in the secretarial pool”. > **[How Mildred the Vintage Secretary Got Her Groove Back with Milk Paint](https://www.attagirlsays.com/how-mildred-the-vintage-secretary-got-her-groove-back-with-milk-paint/)** > > The girls in the secretarial pool chipped in to get Mildred a makeover. She was a hot mess when she arrived for her spa day. A little wobbly on her feet, like she'd taken a which is a funny use of a old term. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/34 "2020-12-05T00:16:50Z")
Ok, once you go there, i am out, you win. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/35 "2020-12-05T00:16:54Z")
Sorry, **Dr Deth** , I misquoted you - you said “secretary pool”, not “typing pool.” (oops, I didn’t intend this to be a reply to myself…) ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/36 "2020-12-05T00:17:57Z")
Truly what’s the big deal? My wife who is now 66 in non covid times would talk about meeting up with a couple of her “girlfriends” for coffee. I would talk about getting together with the boys for some beers over a football game. This PC gets way overthought IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/37 "2020-12-05T00:19:58Z")
I was once on a conference call at my state agency that had dozens of participants - none of whom were secretaries. Managers, regional directors, assistant commissioners and deputy commissioners. One of the white, male deputy commissioners referred to some of us as “girls”. A few days later, a different deputy commissioner happened to be in my office and the subject came up. He really didn’t understand why we were offended. The penny didn’t drop until we asked him how he would have reacted if that white, male deputy commissioner had referred to him as a “boy”. if your wife wants to refer to the people in her knitting circle as “girls” that’s up to her and them. It doesn’t mean I can’t find it demeaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/38 "2020-12-05T00:21:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There rarely are that many _people_ on a BoD as in Secretarial pool. I have seen dozens. The number of people in a particular workplace/professional category has no bearing on whether it’s disrespectful or inappropriate to refer to the adult female individuals among them as “girls”. > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, it is a standard term “the girls in the secretarial pool” Nobody is disagreeing that that particular term is to some extent “standard” or conventional as a traditional way of referring to adult female secretary-pool workers. The point is that it is a sexist, patronizing and diminishing holdover from the days when it was widely viewed as entirely normal to refer to adult female secretary-pool workers in sexist, patronizing and diminishing ways. If anybody these days is still referring to any adult female secretary-pool workers as “the girls in the secretarial pool”, they should stop doing that. Unless they know the women in question are personally okay with it and the term isn’t being used in contexts where it might be seen as disparaging those women’s claims to adult dignity and respect as co-workers. > [@DrDeth](#): > > and my wife sez "the girls in my knitting circle’ even tho most have greying hair. It is none of our business how your wife and the other women in her knitting circle consensually refer to one another in their informal social context, nor what color their hair is. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I say it is meant to sound friendly and informal Nobody is disagreeing with you that people who say “the girls in the secretarial pool” (mostly, probably) mean it to sound friendly and informal rather than patronizing and sexist. We’re just pointing out that it comes across as sounding patronizing and sexist, despite (probably, mostly) not having been intended to sound that way. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/39 "2020-12-05T00:24:55Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/40 "2020-12-05T00:26:53Z")
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239.md?page=3)