# Is this instance of the word 'girls' hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 4, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239 "2020-12-04T22:36:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/41 "2020-12-05T00:27:02Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > Truly what’s the big deal? My wife who is now 66 in non covid times would talk about meeting up with a couple of her “girlfriends” for coffee. I would talk about getting together with the boys for some beers over a football game. See the numerous remarks above about the differences between how groups of intimates in casual social contexts choose to refer to one another, and how groups of employees are labeled by strangers in formal/professional/public contexts. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/42 "2020-12-05T00:31:02Z")
Back in the day (Chaucer) a ‘girl’ could mean a young person of either sex; it’s not so gender-neutral any more… ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/43 "2020-12-05T00:33:39Z")
Are secretary pools even still a thing? I thought that job title was put to bed 20 years ago. Now it’s administrative assistants, data entry, etc. Except for executive secretaries, who’d pummel you for calling them girls. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/44 "2020-12-05T00:43:10Z")
Data Entry barely exists anymore. Secretary Pools don’t. Even Computer Operators are pretty much gone, along with switchboard operators of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/45 "2020-12-05T00:43:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Even females use “girls in the secretarial pool”. > > [Atta Girl Says – 14 Mar 13](https://www.attagirlsays.com/how-mildred-the-vintage-secretary-got-her-groove-back-with-milk-paint/) > > ### [How Mildred the Vintage Secretary Got Her Groove Back with Milk Paint](https://www.attagirlsays.com/how-mildred-the-vintage-secretary-got-her-groove-back-with-milk-paint/) > > The girls in the secretarial pool chipped in to get Mildred a makeover. She was a hot mess when she arrived for her spa day. A little wobbly on her feet, like she’d taken a 🙄 Just pointing out that your cite is deliberately satirizing stereotypical sexist language about human female secretaries for comic effect in an article about a piece of furniture called a “secretary”: > [@](#): > > […] The makeover team descended on Mildred and gave her the works: > > - A facial (also known as a deep cleaning to clear away the dirt, dust and cobwebs from decades of neglect) > - Some microdermabrasion (also known as removing loose veneer with wet rags, an iron and a chisel) > - Concealer (also known as wood sealer to cover and hide her imperfections) […] > > […] All the gals in the secretarial pool agreed that Mildred was officially a knockout. > > A few were so intimidated by her transformation that they hitched up their skirts just a little bit higher and undid an extra button on their blouses. […] > > (If you’ve fallen for Millie, I hear she likes to hang out at Melville Trading Company.) As an attempt to provide supporting evidence that “girls in the secretarial pool” is an acceptable way to refer to real-life female clerical workers nowadays, your cite is a laughable failure in more ways than one. (And while we’re on the topic of sexist modes of address, it’s also widely considered a bit inappropriate and disparaging to use the noun “females” as a synonym for “women”. “Female” as an adjective, as in “female writers” or “female clerical workers” or “female persons”, is considered more appropriate than “females” as a noun when you’re referring specifically to female human beings. Nobody’s accusing you of hate speech on that account, but just FYI.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/46 "2020-12-05T00:56:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > No one uses “gal,” > > I know plenty of people who say “gal”. I personally use “guys” for both sexes, and do not use “girl” as a counterpart for “guy”. That’s interesting. I’m curious where you live. To me, it comes off like a cowboy/hillbilly affectation, something that an old person might say to be funny, and not a real term. (Note, I live in the Ozark Mountains, probably the second most popular **hill** billy location after Appalachia.) Anyways, what do you think of the rest of my argument? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/47 "2020-12-05T01:42:27Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Without knowing anything more about the context: no. It’s sexist, and probably also demeaning toward opticians, but in a stereotyping / patronizing sort of way, not a hateful one. Sexism doesn’t automatically equal hate speech. I agree here. Overall this is a poor example for a survey of hate speech imho 🤵 🤓 ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/48 "2020-12-05T03:00:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But calling adult women “girls” in any formal or professional setting, especially if you don’t know the women in question, is a disrespectful and sexist form of address, even if you personally didn’t intend any disrespect or sexism. What if the person doing the calling is an elderly person who has adult female children older than the women in question? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/49 "2020-12-05T03:10:40Z")
Depends- are you talking about an 80 year old.Probably not going to get that person to change. Are you talking about a 45 year old? That person should already know better. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/50 "2020-12-05T03:32:47Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > What if the person doing the calling is an elderly person who has adult female children older than the women in question? Does this person have dementia? Because if this person worked in my company, it would be definite sign. I work for a Fortune 100ish company. I know a lot of the executive assistants for VPs and Directors (including mine). Many are women I’ve known for years and consider friends. But if I walked into a room where several of them were working and said something like "How are you girls doing?, it would not be a positive move on my part. And I would definitely come down on any peer or subordinate that referred to them as girls, even in private. And finally, hasn’t everyone learned yet that when a group is belittled or demeaned by a term, the fact that they may adopt it among themselves doesn’t make it OK for those in positions of relative power and security to start using those terms to refer to that group. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/51 "2020-12-05T03:51:22Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Sexism doesn’t automatically equal hate speech. This. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/52 "2020-12-05T04:35:14Z")
Hate speech is abusive or threatening speech against a group of marginalized people. This is casual sexism at worst. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/53 "2020-12-05T05:20:08Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Depends- are you talking about an 80 year old.Probably not going to get that person to change. Are you talking about a 45 year old? That person should already know better. > [@peccavi](#): > > Does this person have dementia? Because if this person worked in my company, it would be definite sign. The point I was making–which was quite clear, but somehow neither of you got it–was a matter of age and perspective. Many of us have had the experience of looking back on our childhood and realizing that somebody we thought was old actually wasn’t. I’ve known a certain gentleman most of my life. When I first met him, when I was in grade school, I thought he was an old man. I realized years later that he was roughly 57 years old when I first met him. To a child, almost all adults seem old. Conversely, to a sufficiently old person, many younger adults seem almost children. Various comics and humor writers have touched on this; for example, claiming to think that their local police force is now hiring high school students. To a 70-year-old man, who has a 40-year-old daughter, it is eminently logical to view a 30-year-old woman as a girl. After all, she’s younger than his OWN girl. There is nothing sexist or misogynist or feeble-minded about it–it is simply and solely a matter of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/54 "2020-12-05T08:55:07Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > But please do mansplain to us girls what’s demeaning to us and what isn’t. You obviously know so much more than we do. Hear, hear. > [@doreen](#): > > if your wife wants to refer to the people in her knitting circle as “girls” that’s up to her and them. It doesn’t mean I can’t find it demeaning. Hear, hear again. > [@Bootb](#): > > To a 70-year-old man, who has a 40-year-old daughter, it is eminently logical to view a 30-year-old woman as a girl. After all, she’s younger than his OWN girl. There is nothing sexist or misogynist or feeble-minded about it–it is simply and solely a matter of perspective. Shaking my old, gray-haired head. My mind is boggled by how many ways wrong minded this is. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/55 "2020-12-05T09:09:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That said, I think it’s a misunderstanding based on something that often comes up—people see explanations of social concepts working like mathematical equations. They don’t realize that they’re more simplifications of complex concepts, and that every statement will be some level of generalization. > > Instead of trying to synthesize information from different statements, I think it’s more useful to look at the broader picture. To be honest **BigT** , this part went over my head. The guy/girl and gal part I disagree with, the rest I agree with. I live in Florida, and to @needscoffee, 24. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/56 "2020-12-05T09:11:18Z")
If the concept is to be anything more than a political cudgel ‘marginalized’ needs to be dropped. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/57 "2020-12-05T11:23:38Z")
Sexist, tone deaf, but not hate speech. It’s demeaning to women but not attempting to inspire others toward hate. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/58 "2020-12-05T12:41:32Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Conversely, to a sufficiently old person, many younger adults seem almost children. Various comics and humor writers have touched on this; for example, claiming to think that their local police force is now hiring high school students. > To a 70-year-old man, who has a 40-year-old daughter, it is eminently logical to view a 30-year-old woman as a girl. After all, she’s younger than his OWN girl. There is nothing sexist or misogynist or feeble-minded about it–it is simply and solely a matter of perspective. And yet, although I have a 30 year-old daughter, I don’t view either her or others her age as a girl. Nor do most of the 50 something year-olds I know. Saying “the cop looks so young he could be in high school” or " “you’re just a kid - you’ll see when you get older” is nothing like referring to the 30ish old pharmacist as "the girl at the pharmacy counter " - because no one refers to her male counterpart as the “boy behind the pharmacy counter”, And one reason is that the people who refer to “the girl” assume the 30ish male is the pharmacist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/59 "2020-12-05T12:48:58Z")
But, for the most part, the young ladies acting as sales clerks/fitters/eyeglass adjusters in these optometrist chain stores are NOT pharmacists and/or doctors. They are young, attractive, and there to draw people in. I would not be shocked if a large portion of them are still in their high “teens”. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239/60 "2020-12-05T12:55:49Z")
I would be - and I’d be even more surprised if the person referring to them as girls ( rather than as sales clerks /fitters/eyeglasses adjusters) could reliably distinguish between a 17 year old and 21 year old based on solely on appearance. It’s not like Lenscrafters hires 12 year olds. And again, people don’t refer to “boys” in the same way. Let’s take the professional aspect out - I’ve heard lots of people refer to the "girl behind the counter " in a convenience store even if she looks 40ish. But never the “boy behind the counter” unless he’s literally about 12 ( which is possible in a family-owned store) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-instance-of-the-word-girls-hate-speech/927239.md?page=4)