# Is this 'justice'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877 "2013-10-10T15:35:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/221 "2013-10-15T18:20:30Z")
> [@Stalky](#): > > Only in jurisdictions with a felony murder rule, where J walking is a felony… Point taken. But what if prison system lobbyists convince the state to make jay-walking a felony, and then…sorry. I just can’t do this with a straight face. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/222 "2013-10-15T18:24:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Point taken. > But what if prison system lobbyists convince the state to make jay-walking a felony, and then…sorry. I just can’t do this with a straight face. 😃 Well they did convince them that cannabis cultivation and possession are… so there is some precedent :0 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/223 "2013-10-15T18:28:11Z")
> [@Stalky](#): > > Well they did convince them that cannabis cultivation and possession are… so there is some precedent :0 The line between reality and stupidity is getting too thin for my tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/224 "2013-10-15T18:28:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s add another factor to my scenario: Witnesses testify that the person who was struck and killed didn’t want to cross, but the one who survived argued with him until agreed to go. Hoo boy, getting out of my field here. Based on the jury instructions, that can’t be manslaughter, since that requires wanton conduct, defined as “a wrongful act done on purpose in complete disregard of the rights of others.” For reckless homicide, though, it’s trickier. The standard is: A person is acting recklessly if “he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk,” and the risk “must be of such nature and degree that failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.” But, _West v. Commonwealth_ states that: before defendants can be found guilty of either reckless homicide or manslaughter, there must exist a legal duty owed by the defendants to the victim. A finding of legal duty is a critical element of the crime charged. A recent case we had in the Commonwealth was a high school football coach charged with reckless homicide when his exceptionally tough practices resulted in a player’s death from heat stroke. So far as I know, there’s no legal duty one friend owes another in crossing a freeway, so I don’t think it’d be reckless homicide either. [QUOTE=Northern Piper] But it’s a criminal act on its own (e.g. vehicular homicide; dangerous driving causing death; exact name of the offence will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction). No need to pull in any sort of felony murder construction. [/QUOTE] Agreed, if **carnivorousplant** had a specific sort of accidental death in mind, perhaps he could post it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/225 "2013-10-15T19:26:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The line between reality and stupidity is getting too thin for my tastes. Your hypotheticals don’t seem to be helping you out much, then. Here, let me offer a tweak: If I push my friend in front of a train, my friend’s death with respect to the train conductor’s conduct: an accident, no? And yet I pushed him in front of a train. I murdered him, right? One death is simultaneously an accident and a murder. No? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/226 "2013-10-15T20:18:59Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Isn’t this the extreme minority rule? I thought most felony murder laws excluded the death of a “co-felon” killed in the act? That’s news to me. I distinctly remember from some time ago in California a couple of idiots decided to have a shoot-out with the police and one of the idiots got killed in said shoot-out. The other was charged with murder. Now, I may be incorrectly recalling the case, but even so, I don’t see a problem with it. > [@](#): > > Other than that tweak, I fully support the rule. If you commit a violent felony, anyone with a brain knows that you are placing lives in serious danger. Someone gets killed, you go to jail. > > Hell, the drunk driver that killed Nick Adenhart got 50 to life in prison for DUI causing death. He didn’t mean to kill the guy. He didn’t mean to commit a felony. He committed what is usually a stupid misdemeanor that is very dangerous, but doesn’t result in harm 999/1000. He still got 50 years. I never understood that either. The attempt should also carry severe consequences, shouldn’t it? In this instance, merely driving drunk could be considered an attempt, unintended as it is. Another thing that gets me is AWD. If it’s a deadly weapona and you’re assaulting someone with it, isn’t that an attempt at either manslaughter or murder? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/227 "2013-10-15T21:02:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Point taken. > But what if prison system lobbyists convince the state to make jay-walking a felony, and then…sorry. I just can’t do this with a straight face. 😃 This is why attorneys make so much money. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/228 "2013-10-15T21:05:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Agreed, if **carnivorousplant** had a specific sort of accidental death in mind, perhaps he could post it. No, I do not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/229 "2013-10-15T21:29:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I never understood that either. The attempt should also carry severe consequences, shouldn’t it? In this instance, merely driving drunk could be considered an \*\*attempt, unintended \*\*as it is. Another thing that gets me is AWD. If it’s a deadly weapona and you’re assaulting someone with it, isn’t that an attempt at either manslaughter or murder? \*bolding mine. Intuitively it’s hard to attempt something if you aren’t intentionally doing it. And legally speaking there is no such thing as an “attempted malice murder” because, as you said, every drunk driver could be guilty of attempted murder. For much the same reason, assault with a deadly weapon, like a baseball bat isn’t necessarily attempted murder. You could lash out at someone and start beating them such that you would be convicted of murder 2 if he died, but only AWDW if he lives. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/230 "2013-10-16T01:10:28Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Intuitively it’s hard to attempt something if you aren’t intentionally doing it. I would steal that for my sig if I didn’t already have the best. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877.md?page=11)