# Is this 'justice'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877 "2013-10-10T15:35:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/41 "2013-10-10T18:16:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By the way, if you want to go the “they got what they deserved” route, let’s not forget to factor in the killing of one and the injuring of the other _while he was attempting to save the life of his friend instead of either attacking the homeowner or running away_. Was that act of what could only be labeled bravery factored into his sentence, or do you feel the proper thing to do at that time was to dump his friend and run away? Surrendering certainly wasn’t an option at that time-the homeowner apparently had a license to kill. You assert that this was the situation, but as I pointed out before, you have no evidence to back it up, only the vague description in the news story which you have embellished. They were partially responsible for the death of their companion, and have been required by law to pay for it by prison sentence. If it’s injustice (and it may be) it’s certainly not at the top of the list of “horrible things that must be fixed right now.” Certainly there are many more people who engage in similar activities that avoid stuff like this happening to them only by virtue of sheer luck. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/42 "2013-10-10T18:18:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I applaud these type of laws, the legislators that pass them, and the prosecutors that have the courage to apply them. I also applaud the home owner for being ready to defend his family and his home. Bravo and hearty back slaps all around! I hope you don’t mind if I take this just a bit more seriously than you, and not applaud the killing and injuring(legally justified or not) of juvenile perpetrators who were trying to escape when they realized there were people in the house. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/43 "2013-10-10T18:23:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once the perpetrators realized that the home was occupied were they given a chance to run off or surrender, or did the homeowner just start shooting? If there was no warning, what should they have done when discovered? It’s a bit late at that point. About their only option at that late stage in the game would be to throw up their hands and beg for mercy and try to appear as non-threatening as possible. Think of it as the equivalent of trying for an on-side kick, Hail Mary pass, and two-point conversion with seconds left on the clock of a football game. Is it likely to work? No, but you shouldn’t have let yourself wind up in that situation to begin with. As an aside, I think the fact that Angie Johnson heard gunshots from four blocks away and “she became worried and started calling her son’s phone” speaks volumes about the quality of her parenting and the type of child she had. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/44 "2013-10-10T18:25:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I hope you don’t mind if I take this just a bit more seriously than you, and not applaud the killing and injuring(legally justified or not) of juvenile perpetrators who were trying to escape when they realized there were people in the house. Were they trying to escape when they realized there was a person home, or was it only when they realized that he was armed? This question is not sarcastic. Do you happen to know what the order of events was that was established in the trial? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/45 "2013-10-10T18:25:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I hope you don’t mind if I take this just a bit more seriously than you, and not applaud the killing and injuring(legally justified or not) of juvenile perpetrators who were trying to escape when they realized there were people in the house. I’m skeptical of pretty much everything the criminals claim, from “we thought it was unoccupied” to “we were trying to escape” and even “I was just helping my wounded comrade”. I’d rather see 10,000 dead teen burglars and 50,000 of their accomplices locked away for life, than one more Petit family situation. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/46 "2013-10-10T18:26:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By the way, if you want to go the “they got what they deserved” route, let’s not forget to factor in the killing of one and the injuring of the other _while he was attempting to save the life of his friend instead of either attacking the homeowner or running away_. Was that act of what could only be labeled bravery factored into his sentence, or do you feel the proper thing to do at that time was to dump his friend and run away? Surrendering certainly wasn’t an option at that time-the homeowner apparently had a license to kill. Surrendering is always an option. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I applaud these type of laws, the legislators that pass them, and the prosecutors that have the courage to apply them. I also applaud the home owner for being ready to defend his family and his home. Bravo and hearty back slaps all around! It’s not particularly American or just to punish someone for the actions of someone else, nor to put strict-liability crimes that ignore _mens rea_. The homeowner did nothing wrong, though, I concur. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once the perpetrators realized that the home was occupied were they given a chance to run off or surrender, or did the homeowner just start shooting? I haven’t found trial transcripts, but here’s a [news report about the homeowner’s testimony:](http://www.wndu.com/news/headlines/Homeowner-Testifies-as-witness-220670091.html) > [@](#): > > Scott said he stepped down the first three steps, then ran down the remainder of the steps hoping that if there was someone inside they’d hear him and try to run out of the house. When he made it downstairs he remembered walking through the living room, scanning the home for intruders, and finding one in the kitchen running out the door and two more standing in the bedroom door. > > “It was fear because when you see that many people in your house, that you didn’t invite into your house. Fear comes over you. You don’t know if you’re going to be hurt or you’re going to be killed," he explained. > > Scott decided to fire his gun because he didn’t know whether they were armed or whether they’d attack him. He began firing, hoping to trap them in the bedroom and hold them there until he could call police. > > When asked why he didn’t immediately he answered, “that was not my mindset.” He could not remember where he aimed his gun—it was the first time he ever fired it. > > According to the homeowner, the door to the bedroom closet opened several times—each time he told the teens to stay inside. But then the body of Danzele Johnson collapse onto the ground and from inside the closet Quiroz said “he’s been shot.” So the homeowner—still on the phone with dispatchers—told them to call for an ambulance. So, sounds like he just started shooting - which is perfectly understandable, and is (and should be) legal. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If there was no warning, what should they have done when discovered? Surrender, or flee. That’s about their only options. I’d vote surrender, as a Monday morning quarterback: hands up, yell “Unarmed!” or “Don’t shoot” or “Please” and hope for the best. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/47 "2013-10-10T18:28:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You forgot to add “ruled a justifiable homicide”. The homeowner didn’t commit murder (or any crime). The 4 burglars did commit felony murder. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. That the homeowner’s actions are justified doesn’t mean that a crime wasn’t committed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/48 "2013-10-10T18:28:42Z")
> [@Stalky](#): > > You assert that this was the situation, but as I pointed out before, you have no evidence to back it up, only the vague description in the news story which you have embellished. If you’ve got a cite with more on it about this case, you are more than welcome to post it. I can only work with the data that is put forth. > [@Stalky](#): > > They were partially responsible for the death of their companion, and have been required by law to pay for it by prison sentence. Was the death ruled Justifiable Homicide on the part of the person that actually pulled the trigger? If so, then I don’t see a basis for giving a totally different ruling on the death when it comes to those who _didn’t_ pull the trigger. Was it Justifiable Homicide or not? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/49 "2013-10-10T18:30:03Z")
I don’t applaud the death of these folks - but the homeowner has no idea (nor do you) if the group of four were trying to run at the time it’s happening. We also don’t know they were trying to target an empty house. I do know that I would consider it justice if they all the robbers ended up dead. I wouldn’t applaud it but I would be fine with the outcome. Long prison sentences don’t even register as something to be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/50 "2013-10-10T18:32:47Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The homeowner didn’t commit murder (or any crime). The 4 burglars did commit felony murder. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. That the homeowner’s actions are justified doesn’t mean that a crime wasn’t committed. Fill in the blank: The victim’s death was ruled to be \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/51 "2013-10-10T18:34:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t applaud the death of these folks - but the homeowner has no idea (nor do you) if the group of four were trying to run at the time it’s happening. We also don’t know they were trying to target an empty house. > > I do know that I would consider it justice if they all the robbers ended up dead. I wouldn’t applaud it but I would be fine with the outcome. Long prison sentences don’t even register as something to be concerned about. With no chance for retreat or surrender? Perhaps allow them to lay on the ground face down? Or is it just unrestricted open season? ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/52 "2013-10-10T18:36:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Was the death ruled Justifiable Homicide on the part of the person that actually pulled the trigger? If so, then I don’t see a basis for giving a totally different ruling on the death when it comes to those who _didn’t_ pull the trigger. Was it Justifiable Homicide or not? As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, these 2 things are not mutually exclusive. The homeowner was deemed justified, AND the burglars were deemed responsible. I’m not understanding why this doesn’t seem reasonable to you, especially since it’s clear that if a pack of burglars goes into a home that the entire pack is responsible for what happens subsequently. Or at least that is what gels with my common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/53 "2013-10-10T18:37:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I do know that I would consider it justice if they all the robbers ended up dead. I wouldn’t applaud it but I would be fine with the outcome. Long prison sentences don’t even register as something to be concerned about. Does it follow that you’d support imposing the death penalty on convicted robbers? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Was the death ruled Justifiable Homicide on the part of the person that actually pulled the trigger? If so, then I don’t see a basis for giving a totally different ruling on the death when it comes to those who didn’t pull the trigger. Was it Justifiable Homicide or not? There is a legal basis: for the boys, it’s a murder, because it was death that occured as a reasonably foreseable outcome of a felony they committed. For the homeowner, it’s not, because Indiana’s Castle Doctine justifies the use of force to repel an unlawful entry into a home. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/54 "2013-10-10T18:38:51Z")
Break into a person’s house - open season. Their only hope is that the homeowner misses and they can either flee or present themselves to be such a non threat and that the homeower has time to realize it. Maybe by handcuffing themselves and then bashing themselves unconscious. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/55 "2013-10-10T18:38:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > With no chance for retreat or surrender? Perhaps allow them to lay on the ground face down? > Or is it just unrestricted open season? Did you read the homeowners testimony from earlier in the thread? He’s not James Bond. He was scared shitless and was simply hoping to pin them down til the police got there. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/56 "2013-10-10T18:39:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d rather see 10,000 dead teen burglars and 50,000 of their accomplices locked away for life, than one more Petit family situation. How does the one prevent the other? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/57 "2013-10-10T18:40:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Would you mind explaining, if you know, the basis of the argument that: > > > [@](#): > > > > The statutory language “kills another human being while committing” does not restrict the felony murder provision only to instances in which the felon is the killer, but may also apply equally when, in committing any of the designated felonies, the felon contributes to the death of any person. The traditional basis is that “kills” encompasses the criminal act which is the proximate cause for the death, like so: I have the specific intent to commit a burglary, which is such a violent act that it is naturally accompanied by a risk of death-by-homeowner, so that a co-conspirator’s getting shot by a homeowner is a naturally foreseeable consequence of my actions in conspiring to commit the burglary. Because I intentionally committed the burglary, and the foreseeable result of a death occurred, I “killed” my co-conspirator for the purposes of the statute. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/58 "2013-10-10T18:41:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Fill in the blank: The victim’s death was ruled to be \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. Felony murder by the burglars, justifiable homicide by the homeowner. It’s really not that complex - different actors can have different roles in a crime. If a bank guard shoots and kills a robber during a shootout is it justifiable homicide? Is it still felony murder for the remaining robbers? Both are true and there’s no contradiction involved. How else would you deal with the death? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/59 "2013-10-10T18:42:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Does it follow that you’d support imposing the death penalty on convicted robbers? No. The criminal justice system must take a dispassionate view of events. If the only crime was robbery it does not follow that the penalty is death as administered by the state. I’m actually against the death penalty per se. But for the homeowner in the heat of the moment without knowing the level of threat - dead robbers is a foreseeable outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/60 "2013-10-10T18:48:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Felony murder by the burglars, justifiable homicide by the homeowner. It’s really not that complex - different actors can have different roles in a crime. > > If a bank guard shoots and kills a robber during a shootout is it justifiable homicide? Is it still felony murder for the remaining robbers? Both are true and there’s no contradiction involved. How else would you deal with the death? By ruling the death a justifiable homicide, and convicting the others for robbing the bank. What’s so hard to understand? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877.md?page=4)