# Is this 'justice'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877 "2013-10-10T15:35:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/81 "2013-10-10T19:55:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I recognize that it’s not a guaranteed prevention, but we would have 60,000 fewer home invaders running loose (there is a somewhat limited supply), and hopefully word would have gotten out to the remainder by then that it’s not wise. I agree with your first point, but a guy here who got off armed assault and robbery with boot camp, committed a burglary and now faces seventeen years for the robbery in addition to whatever he gets from the burglary. These guys are not terribly bright. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/82 "2013-10-10T19:56:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I recognize that it’s not a guaranteed prevention, but we would have 60,000 fewer home invaders running loose (there is a somewhat limited supply), and hopefully word would have gotten out to the remainder by then that it’s not wise. I almost didn’t notice that little bait and switch you pulled. We were talking about a burglary where there was no proven attempt by the perpetrator to harm anyone…then you switched it to “home invaders” > [@Wiki](#): > > Home invasion is a term used in the United States to describe illegal and usually forceful entry to an occupied, private dwelling with violent intent to commit a crime against the occupants, such as robbery, assault, rape, murder, or kidnapping. Would you classify this case as a “home invasion”? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/83 "2013-10-10T20:06:37Z")
In Canada there has to be a premeditated intent to confront the residents. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/84 "2013-10-10T20:11:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you classify this case as a “home invasion”? It would appear to be very difficult to know. If you take the convicts’ version of the events as true then the answer would be no. But I don’t think we can take them at their word, and there’s nobody else who would know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/85 "2013-10-10T20:13:45Z")
> [@Stalky](#): > > It would appear to be very difficult to know. If you take the convicts’ version of the events as true then the answer would be no. > > But I don’t think we can take them at their word, and there’s nobody else who would know. is that how justice works in this country now? When did we drop that silly “innocent until proven guilty” nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/86 "2013-10-10T20:23:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > is that how justice works in this country now? When did we drop that silly “innocent until proven guilty” nonsense? You didn’t ask about their guilt or innocence, you asked a question about how to categorize the incident. There is a distinction to be made between the category something falls into in reality, and what sorts of charges may or may not be put forward in a courtroom. The latter would be dependent not upon what happened, but upon what the prosecution believe could be reasonably proven. Maybe you could shed some light on why this particular case of injustice has you so charged up? I think we can both agree that 50 years was probably too stiff of a sentence, even if we can’t agree who was responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/87 "2013-10-10T20:27:59Z")
> [@Stalky](#): > > It would appear to be very difficult to know. If you take the convicts’ version of the events as true then the answer would be no. > > But I don’t think we can take them at their word, and there’s nobody else who would know. From the previously-linked article about the homeowner’s testimony: > [@](#): > > The homeowner went onto explain how he surrendered himself from the house and was treated as a suspect initially, just as prior officer testimony stated, and began telling an account of what he found the next when he returned to his home. > > “I noticed a knife was missing from my knife set, and I was missing my wallet,” said the homeowner. During concluding arguments the prosecution tied the knife found by the homeowner’s neighbor to the one missing from his knife block, and linked a wallet discovered by the homeowner in the closet with the wallet which had disappeared from his kitchen the day of the burglary. If it was a home invasion, it was a half-assed one, since the offenders brought no weapons of their own, and procured a single knife at some point from the house. Also, if you look at the house ([image here](http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/09/teen-would-be-burglars-convicted-of-felony-murder-receive-extreme-50-year-sentences-for-crimes-they-didnt-commit)), it’s in a neighborhood with houses about twenty feet away on either side and in the back. And the burglary was at 2:30 pm. Hard to imagine pulling off a violent home invasion under those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/88 "2013-10-10T20:28:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > is that how justice works in this country now? When did we drop that silly “innocent until proven guilty” nonsense? Of course we haven’t, but he makes a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/89 "2013-10-10T20:29:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m confused, then. You said you’d consider it justice if all the robbers ended up dead. What does that mean? I’m not following where the disconnect is. It means that if the robbers all get killed then the universe is in harmony? You’ll have to elaborate on what part is confusing you. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/90 "2013-10-10T20:35:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Of course we haven’t, but he makes a good point. If that were the case, we shouldn’t let the accused ever testify. They just can’t be believed, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/91 "2013-10-10T20:39:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Of course we haven’t, but he makes a good point. If we haven’t dropped it, then his point isn’t good _because his point directly opposes that principle._ ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/92 "2013-10-10T20:45:01Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If that were the case, we shouldn’t let the accused ever testify. They just can’t be believed, you know. All sorts of witnesses lie under oath. All sorts of witnesses remember incorrectly. All sorts of witnesses use misleading language. Testimony is an important part of court proceedings, but it’s less important nowadays than it used to be in the past precisely because it has been demonstrated to be unreliable. Strawman? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/93 "2013-10-10T20:49:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If it’s any consolation to you, the Supreme Court of Canada used exactly that reasoning in striking down the Canadian equivalent of felony murder. Murder is a specific intent offence. If you don’t have the intent to murder, it’s unconstitutional to convict you of murder. Thank you for this. It’s the type of thing I was getting at when I asked about “justice” in the OP. Do you (or anyone else) know if, in the US, a felony murder law has ever been challenged on Constitutional grounds (perhaps along the same lines that the Canadian Court did)? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/94 "2013-10-10T20:57:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If that were the case, we shouldn’t let the accused ever testify. They just can’t be believed, you know. I would lie like hell in their situation. I was not looking for a baseball bat in the closet, I was pulling my friend to safety! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/95 "2013-10-10T20:58:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we haven’t dropped it, then his point isn’t good _because his point directly opposes that principle._ Run that by again? The judge and jury should believe the guy to be innocent until proven otherwise, but the prosecutor sure as hell thinks the guy is guilty. He would not be prosecuting him otherwise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/96 "2013-10-10T21:24:19Z")
People are convicted of vehicular homicide and they seldom intend to hurt, let alone kill, anyone. It’s a foreseeable result from the act they did engage in, to wit, driving drunk. Felony murder is similar, I think. I also think it can result in overly harsh results from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/97 "2013-10-10T21:29:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How can there be two different outcomes for the same death? If it was justifiable homicide when the accused is the homeowner, how could it also be ruled murder when the accused is the other perpetrator?. The same way that a bank guard shooting a getway car driver during an armed robbery is justifiable homicide, but the getaway car driver shooting the bank guard is a murderer. Hell, in many states if the bank guard dies of a heart-attack caused by the stress of the armed robbery, the getaway driver could be charged with murder in the commission of a felony. I’m totally fine with this result and it’s about as just as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/98 "2013-10-10T21:30:53Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > People are convicted of vehicular homicide and they seldom intend to hurt, let alone kill, anyone. It’s a foreseeable result from the act they did engage in, to wit, driving drunk. Felony murder is similar, I think. I also think it can result in overly harsh results from time to time. How often do the other passengers in the car receive the same sentence for vehicular homicide for not convincing the driver to pull over before the accident happens? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/99 "2013-10-10T21:46:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How often do the other passengers in the car receive the same sentence for vehicular homicide for not convincing the driver to pull over before the accident happens? Rarely, but I do recall one case. But riding in the car, even failing to convince the driver to pull over, is not a crime. I think in the case I recall, they were actively encouraging some sort of unsafe driving (racing perhaps). Felony Murder has long roots in our law, and I don’t think it’s a travesty of justice that people who are committing a felony be charged with murder if someone dies during the commission of the crime. Especially burglars. On the other hand, it wouldn’t break my heart if the laws were repealed. As long as we still threw the book at burglars. Felony murder statutes are not so much a deterrent because no one really thinks it’s going to happen to them. Harsh sentences for burglars probably are more easily understood by would-be burglars. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877/100 "2013-10-10T21:50:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I almost didn’t notice that little bait and switch you pulled. We were talking about a burglary where there was no proven attempt by the perpetrator to harm anyone…then you switched it to "home invaders"Would you classify this case as a “home invasion”? Yes. Breaking into an occupied home is what I would call a home invasion. Like I said, I’m skeptical of the criminals’ “we didn’t think anyone was home” line. Even if they were telling the truth, it would be intended as a burglary but an actual home invasion in my book. Not trying to “bait” or “switch” anyone, just calling it how I see it. In Utah, I don’t know of a specific “home invasion” statute, but we treat all break-ins, whether by stealth and secrecy or force and violence, the same for purposes of self-defense. The presumption is that the invaders are there to harm the residents, and the home owner is free to harm them up to the point where he no longer perceives that they are a threat. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > If it was a home invasion, it was a half-assed one, since the offenders brought no weapons of their own, and procured a single knife at some point from the house. The Petit murders started with a fairly half-assed home invasion as well. They didn’t “intend” to commit unspeakable horrors against the family initially. “[According to Hayes’ confession, the two men planned to rob the house under cover of darkness and flee the scene with the family bound and unharmed.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders)” IIRC, they entered the home with only a single knife too. Things can escalate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-justice/670877.md?page=6)