# Is this kid's book illustration subtly (or not-so-subtly) racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442 "2022-10-18T15:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/61 "2022-10-19T19:28:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s a _duck_- many types are dark. […] > I mean, why isn’t someone getting bent out of shape about Lowly Worm? He’s a _worm_ , and he’s brown! And a crow is just a crow, and a monkey is just a monkey. The only “outraged” and “bent out of shape” people I see in this thread are the ones overreacting to some other posters’ reasonable and thoughtful explorations of whether and how an innocently intended image might nonetheless come across as racist if taken out of context. The rest of us are calmly and realistically discussing potential nuances of symbolism and idiosyncratic interpretation, like grownups. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/62 "2022-10-19T19:30:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Again, the question isn’t, is there bigotry in the book? The question is, could this image from the book, taken entirely on its own as a tattoo, be seen by others as possibly racist? I don’t see how it could be. But the thing is, someone could easily decide it is so, regardless of your best intentions, the author’s intentions, etc… We can’t control what others think. I’d say if it’s not obvious (which it isn’t), then why worry? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/63 "2022-10-19T19:30:59Z")
I’d say this thread was sort of the wrong way to test thing since it primed people to look for racism. I’d take the duck picture, show it to some people and just say “What do you think of this?” and see if any significant number says “That’s one racist duck!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/64 "2022-10-19T19:31:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And a crow is just a crow, and a monkey is just a monkey. Except crows and monkeys _were_ used as racist caricatures of Black people, and ducks… were not. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/65 "2022-10-19T19:33:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Or “Is the fact that some rando might incorrectly interpret a tattoo and get mad over an innocent picture of a duck reason enough to not get the tattoo?” Also a valid question. After all, we just spent dozens of posts in [this recent thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360) debating whether the possibility that some rando might incorrectly interpret a religious icon and get mad over an innocent picture of a Hindu swastika can be reason enough not to use the Hindu swastika symbol. Just because a user’s intent is innocent doesn’t automatically mean that the intended use is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/66 "2022-10-19T19:34:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Except crows and monkeys _were_ used as racist caricatures of Black people, and ducks… were not. Right, which is why the discussion of this image here has been focusing on potential misinterpretation of its secondary and anthropomorphized characteristics rather than its basic duck identity. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/67 "2022-10-19T19:34:40Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Or “Is the fact that some rando might incorrectly interpret a tattoo and get mad over an innocent picture of a duck reason enough to not get the tattoo?” I mean, maybe? As @Miller suggested, @whc.03grady may not want to spend much time explaining “It’s not a racist thing!” to people. Inviting hassle, even unjustified hassle, might not sound like a good time. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/68 "2022-10-19T19:37:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The question is, could this image from the book, taken entirely on its own as a tattoo, be seen by others as possibly racist? I think the thread has demonstrated that it’s unanswerable. We have people here that are literally seeing a different image than others, due to the vagaries of how their computer is displaying a highly-compressed video and how that interacts with their own color perception. But the distortions produced by a tattoo artist, while significant, have no relationship to those caused by the computer display. It’s unpredictable whether any given image will somehow have the details inadvertently altered so as to give the impression of racism for someone inclined to look for it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/69 "2022-10-19T19:37:29Z")
When some of the people thinking there are minstrel-like elements can’t tell the difference between a circle and a rectangle in those secondary elements, I’m not going to give their side a lot of weight. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/70 "2022-10-19T19:39:02Z")
O…kay, I guess? Not quite seeing where the geometric-shape issue comes in. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/71 "2022-10-19T19:39:26Z")
What shape is a banjo body? ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/72 "2022-10-19T19:43:48Z")
If you removed the hat and stick, what remains would just be one cool anthropomorphized dancing duck - with sportcoat and neckerchief. Would that work for you? If not, you could always try for one of the noncontroversial Dr. Seuss characters. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/73 "2022-10-19T19:45:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Just because a user’s intent is innocent doesn’t automatically mean that the intended use is a good idea. Sure, that’s why I said they should just show it to some people blind. If I showed ten people a swastika I’d likely get ten “wtf??” answers back and know it’s a terrible idea even if I didn’t prime the pump by asking if there’s anything racist about it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/74 "2022-10-19T19:55:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > the distortions produced by a tattoo artist, while significant, have no relationship to those caused by the computer display. It’s unpredictable whether any given image will somehow have the details inadvertently altered so as to give the impression of racism for someone inclined to look for it. I’m not an expert on tattoos. If one uses a good artist and makes it clear that specific colors and design are important, doesn’t one expect to get either something very close to what’s asked for, or else an explanation that the artist can’t do that? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/75 "2022-10-19T19:58:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What shape is a banjo body? Oh, I see, you as a music aficionado are rightfully incensed at somebody’s lumping a cigar-box chordaphone into the category of “banjo”. TBF, though, AFAICT many minstrel-show bands did use rectangular box instruments as well as banjos. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/76 "2022-10-19T20:03:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > TBF, though, AFAICT many minstrel-show bands did use rectangular box instruments as well as banjos. Not the ones that poster specifically linked to. Plenty of banjos, didn’t see any box-basses. More importantly, the banjos there are emphatically _not_ “like the duck’s”. All it does is make me question the ability of one side of the argument to actually see what’s in front of their face. Because not only were they mistaken on obvious visual differences, no-one else corrected them either. But sure, make with sarcasm, that’s _suuure_ to make me reconsider my stance. And in any case, I don’t actually see a wealth of minstrel bands playing homemade instruments. Perhaps you’d care to link to “many”. Hell, even a few. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/77 "2022-10-19T20:04:52Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Again, the question isn’t, is there bigotry in the book? The question is, could this image from the book, taken entirely on its own as a tattoo, be seen by others as possibly racist? That is indeed the question, yes. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/78 "2022-10-19T20:09:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > All it does is make me question the ability of one side of the argument to actually see what’s in front of their face. Because not only were they mistaken on obvious visual differences, no-one else corrected them either. Nobody other than you, as near as I can tell, thought that the exact nature of the instrument is what makes the image possibly dubious. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/79 "2022-10-19T20:10:21Z")
I find this discussion interesting, and reminiscent of much I encounter/hear these days. I don’t see it as anything other than a duck. But some folk obviously do - going so far as to say it is clearly a “racist trope.” Who is right? It raises the issue, do certain persons “see racist tropes” when they really oughtn’t? I would think getting offended by this image would properly be awfully low in priority for folk concerned with racism and equality. But each of us gets to be bothered by whatever we choose. I don’t have any tats. I just don’t care for them. But anyone else is free to do what they wish with their body. I would think a random walk through a farmer’s market in warm weather would reveal any number of body ink more clearly - uh - “offensive” than this dancing duck. But to each their own - both in choosing a tat and choosing to assign value statements to someone else’s ink. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442/80 "2022-10-19T20:10:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Nobody other than you, as near as I can tell, thought that the exact nature of the instrument is what makes the image possibly dubious. It’s not the nature of the image that was dubious. It was the clear certainty of the observer that the minstrels in their link were using the same instrument as the duck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-kids-book-illustration-subtly-or-not-so-subtly-racist/973442.md?page=5)