# Is this My Lai, Part II? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371 "2006-05-26T21:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/1 "2006-05-26T21:13:37Z")
From [cnn.com](http://cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html): > [@](#): > > An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/2 "2006-05-26T21:28:56Z")
> [@The New and Improved Superman](#): > > From [cnn.com](http://cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html): Heck, Mai Lai wasn’t even Mai Lai _ **1** _. Pointless massacres of civilians have been happening since war was invented. Did you have any specific thoughts on this particular alleged incident? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/3 "2006-05-26T21:58:10Z")
There’s really nothing to get excited about. God is sorting them out even as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/4 "2006-05-26T22:06:57Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Heck, Mai Lai wasn’t even Mai Lai _ **1** _. Pointless massacres of civilians have been happening since war was invented. Did you have any specific thoughts on this particular alleged incident? Actually, yes I did but I didn’t realize I’d cut them off before I posted (should always hit “preview” first!) Well, what struck me as most like the mai lai massacre was the fact that a cover-up was apparently attempted - with U.S. troops trying to pass off the killings off as unfortunately being ‘caught in crossfire’. If it was not caught on video, would that be the story we’d have heard about it? Mai Lai was especially noteworthy when it was actually reported because of the shock involved - most Americans could believe that godless, communist, viet cong _savage_could commit horrible atrocities but not “our saintly, heroic forces.” Many war hawks were quick to try dismissing it as an abberation, not an example of how U.S. troops actually behaved in 'Nam. Apparently this is happening again: > [@](#): > > “We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful,” Hagee said, according to a copy of his speech released by the Marine Corps. “_This is the American way of war_.” (italics mine.) Most folks insist upon today that U.S. troops in Iraq must NOT be spoken of publically as nothing less than HEROIC. But certainly in this case, it ain’t so. How many other cases that we don’t know of yet? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/5 "2006-05-26T22:12:29Z")
I’m sure it can all be “explained” away with the “few bad apples” mantra. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/6 "2006-05-26T22:16:43Z")
> [@The New and Improved Superman](#): > > How many other cases that we don’t know of yet? Well, for one, the [Fallujah massacre](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm) has been kept pretty much under wraps. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/7 "2006-05-26T23:16:59Z")
Not to nitpick, but I thought it was My Lai. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/8 "2006-05-26T23:32:38Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > There’s really nothing to get excited about. > > God is sorting them out even as we speak. Ihope it’s going well for them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/9 "2006-05-26T23:43:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Not to nitpick, but I thought it was My Lai. Don’t be greedy. There’s plenty for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/10 "2006-05-27T03:03:14Z")
The disturbing thing about this is that the potential for this sort of thing is always with us. We give spectacularly deadly personal weapons to young men and women – but mostly young men– and put them is situations in which they are simultaneously scared, frustrated and resentful. That is a recipe for savagery unless the people at the sharp point of the spear are kept under very close supervision and control. If the control breaks down the natural and inevitable consequence is that all that fear, frustration and resentment is taken out on whoever comes to hand. It is the primary function of NCOs and officers, especially junior officers, to control and direct. Every person placed in charge of a rifle team or a squad detail, or a squad, or a platoon or a company lives in fear of the moment when his people cease to be a disciplined military force and become, even briefly, a heavily armed mob. That seems to be just what happened here – a squad of infantry, or maybe the squad leader and just a few young men, became an armed and undisciplined mob. Whose fault is that? The men involved of course, but from an organizational stand point it is the fault of the NCOs and junior officers whose primary responsibility, beyond even looking out for the welfare of their people, was to make sure that discipline was not lost. More disturbing was the pretty clumsy attempt to conceal the incident. The people in charge knew better. The must have known what every leader in a combat zone must be taught – when the fabric starts to unravel it has to be dealt with right away, otherwise the fabric of the unit will be destroyed. While the event is the responsibility of the NCOs and junior officers on the ground, it is the fault of the senior officers that there was an attempt to sweep this under the rug rather than deal with it in a responsible and professional manner. Is this another Mai Lai? Probably not, either in scale or scope. Could it become one if it is not dealt with? You had better believe it. To admit that an organization you want to believe to be an elite and reliable unit has betrayed its most serious obligation is a hard thing to do, but facing reality is what leadership is all about. It is likely that we have had both a failure of discipline and a failure of leadership that was foreseeable and preventable. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/11 "2006-05-27T03:27:22Z")
Spavined gelding: Good post. I confess that this is one time I would really like to hear that it was all made up and didn’t happen. Here’s to wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/12 "2006-05-27T03:51:28Z")
> [@The New and Improved Superman](#): > > Most folks insist upon today that U.S. troops in Iraq must NOT be spoken of publically as nothing less than HEROIC. But certainly in this case, it ain’t so. How many other cases that we don’t know of yet? The one that always bugged me remains so because it seems that no one has bothered to take a look: > **[A Review of Unembedded](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/4/16/202713/-)** > > Kael Alford, the photographer, who has expressed some ambivalence about seeing this photograph published at all, is part of a stunning but often horrifying new book and traveling exhibit called "Un... > [@](#): > > Earlier in the day, Abdul-Ahad had received a phone call that the insurgents had blown up a Bradley fighting vehicle and that a crowd of Iraqis were celebrating around the burning wreckage. The scene has taken on the appearance of a macabre carnival and that he should get to Haifa Street immediately. But the US military would turn the tables against the Iraqis in a horrifying way and strafe Haifa Street with Apache attack helicopters, killing 22 civilians and wounding over 40 more. In the photo, we see an American helicopter in the upper right hand corner flying out of the frame after pulverizing a building off in the distance, and a crowd of terrified civilians running in our direction. But the photographer is not running away from the horror. He’s running towards it, and horror it is. When he arrives on the scene, the Bradley is on fire and people are sprawled out all over Haifa Street dead or dying. Now, the good news: the original report said that all Americans soldiers managed to get out. The bad news was that the people celebrating, who were not the attackers BTW, were shot. IMHO this does qualify as a massacre, seeing that report then showed me that if Iraqis at any random point were willing to celebrate over the remains of destroyed American equipment, that the reports of Iraqis supporting us were just lies. If the report by the Unembedded reporters was correct, the military decided to kill not the attackers but the ones celebrating, since there were no American troops dead or being abused, this does qualify as the most boneheaded move at the time we were supposed to be winning the hearts of the Iraqis. (here I have to mention that it was reckless for Iraqis to celebrate, but even if one thinks they deserved to die, the problem here is that all the relatives that would not had any ill ideas against America suddenly now have a reason to do so) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/13 "2006-05-27T15:03:34Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > There’s really nothing to get excited about. > > God is sorting them out even as we speak. How would you like to see your wife and child murdered as they slept by the US military? Would it give you great comfort to know that God was “sorting them out”? Will the people care? Well, they didn’t care about dropping white phosphorus on civilians in Fallujah. As far as the American public is concerned, as long as the dead aren’t Americans, it doesn’t matter. It appears that the American response to terrorism is to become a terrorist nation itself. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/14 "2006-05-27T16:41:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How would you like to see your wife and child murdered as they slept by the US military? Would it give you great comfort to know that God was “sorting them out”? Stopped taking your irony supplements? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/15 "2006-05-28T19:53:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Will the people care? Well, they didn’t care about dropping white phosphorus on civilians in Fallujah. As far as the American public is concerned, as long as the dead aren’t Americans, it doesn’t matter. It appears that the American response to terrorism is to become a terrorist nation itself. Sadly this is true. Hopefully all our talk about freedom, democracy and being humane will actually play a role in our acts. However with Abu Gharib for example we just punished low level officers and let the higher ranking ones get away. Does anyone know the response of the hawks to Haditha? Are they denying it, or what exactly? Are opinions like these common for the hawks? [http://rightvoices.com/2006/05/18/john-murtha-convicts-the-marines-without-a-trial/](http://rightvoices.com/2006/05/18/john-murtha-convicts-the-marines-without-a-trial/) [http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/21/coverage\_of\_haditha\_shootings\_fox\_news\_style\_smear\_decorated\_veteran\_john\_murtha\_give\_deferential\_treatment\_to\_suspected\_felon\_ann\_coulter.php](http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/21/coverage_of_haditha_shootings_fox_news_style_smear_decorated_veteran_john_murtha_give_deferential_treatment_to_suspected_felon_ann_coulter.php) [http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/25/john\_murtha\_answers\_his\_fat\_backside\_critics\_with\_facts\_hannity\_colmes\_excludes\_most\_of\_what\_he\_said.php](http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/25/john_murtha_answers_his_fat_backside_critics_with_facts_hannity_colmes_excludes_most_of_what_he_said.php) At least the american media is actually reporting this stuff. And Inigo wasn’t serious ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/16 "2006-05-29T05:40:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How would you like to see your wife and child murdered as they slept by the US military? Would it give you great comfort to know that God was “sorting them out”? > > Will the people care? Well, they didn’t care about dropping white phosphorus on civilians in Fallujah. As far as the American public is concerned, as long as the dead aren’t Americans, it doesn’t matter. It appears that the American response to terrorism is to become a terrorist nation itself. That was no attack helicopter, but it certainly was a military-grade whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/17 "2006-05-29T07:57:21Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > a military-grade whoosh It cost eight thousand dollars and it broke when it got dirty? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/18 "2006-05-29T09:53:38Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The disturbing thing about this is that the potential for this sort of thing is always with us. We give spectacularly deadly personal weapons to young men and women – but mostly young men– and put them is situations in which they are simultaneously scared, frustrated and resentful. That is a recipe for savagery unless the people at the sharp point of the spear are kept under very close supervision and control. > > If the control breaks down the natural and inevitable consequence is that all that fear, frustration and resentment is taken out on whoever comes to hand. It is the primary function of NCOs and officers, especially junior officers, to control and direct. Every person placed in charge of a rifle team or a squad detail, or a squad, or a platoon or a company lives in fear of the moment when his people cease to be a disciplined military force and become, even briefly, a heavily armed mob. > > That seems to be just what happened here – a squad of infantry, or maybe the squad leader and just a few young men, became an armed and undisciplined mob. Whose fault is that? The men involved of course, but from an organizational stand point it is the fault of the NCOs and junior officers whose primary responsibility, beyond even looking out for the welfare of their people, was to make sure that discipline was not lost. > > More disturbing was the pretty clumsy attempt to conceal the incident. The people in charge knew better. The must have known what every leader in a combat zone must be taught – when the fabric starts to unravel it has to be dealt with right away, otherwise the fabric of the unit will be destroyed. While the event is the responsibility of the NCOs and junior officers on the ground, it is the fault of the senior officers that there was an attempt to sweep this under the rug rather than deal with it in a responsible and professional manner. > > Is this another Mai Lai? Probably not, either in scale or scope. Could it become one if it is not dealt with? You had better believe it. To admit that an organization you want to believe to be an elite and reliable unit has betrayed its most serious obligation is a hard thing to do, but facing reality is what leadership is all about. It is likely that we have had both a failure of discipline and a failure of leadership that was foreseeable and preventable. No, no, no. Oberve the evidence. This is not an breakdown of control or an aberrant event. Essentially: - It is a massacre of innocent civilians by the US military, - which the US military has made a desultory effort to cover up. Once again, the easy fallacy is to assume the SDMB standard is the norm. No, massacring civilians and covering it up is why the US is in Iraq. While a tiny minority of the US joins the civilised world in abhorrence, all throughout that nation the massacre and the clumsy cover-up bring a swell of pride to the american breast. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/19 "2006-05-29T13:11:57Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > No, massacring civilians and covering it up is why the US is in Iraq. While a tiny minority of the US joins the civilised world in abhorrence, all throughout that nation the massacre and the clumsy cover-up bring a swell of pride to the american breast. You will do me the kindness of explaining your proposition more fully, with illustrations? My position is that bad behavior by soldiers is a default condition that will assert itself unless it is constantly and strenuously restrained. It is like walking a biting dog on a crowded street – unless kept on a tight leash someone is going to be bitten. I will not accept that slaughter is my government’s policy in this ill conceived and ill advised foreign adventure. As far as costly blunders go, I anticipate that historians will include our invasion and occupation of Iraq with Napoleon III’s invasion of Mexico, the war in Vietnam and some what below Napoleon I’s and Hitler’s invasion of Russia. I do not, however, let my detestation of this fool war interfere with my understanding of the nature of armies and the role of discipline in their operation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371/20 "2006-05-29T13:47:46Z")
**Spavined Gelding** : With all due respect, you might want to spend your time discussing these things with someone who… isn’t this piece of work. When someone’s gotten a final warning like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7135517&postcount=72) it’s generally safest not to take any of their, argumentation, seriously. This, after all, is someone who has [a history of being deliberately dishonest and inflamatory.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356405) This is someone who will enter debates, time and time again, to tell people how groups like Hamas are full of kindness and have no malice, at all, and how even though the PLO’s main document calls for the violent murder of all Jews in Israel who were part of the first alyiah onwards, and the destruction of the entire state, and how Palestinian society is filled with racist, violent, and genocidal propaganda, he still refuses to behave honorably or honestly. And now, it seems, he’s got a hardon for Americans. Sure, we all glory in news of massacres. It’s a national passtime, we boot up footage of maimed corpses and drink beer. Obviously. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-my-lai-part-ii/358371.md?page=2)