# Is this offensive, or am I too sensitive? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 25, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907 "2012-04-25T14:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/61 "2012-04-30T03:56:27Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > As a Mexican I would say that if the class was looking for traditional dress as apparently they did with the girls, they should have dressed the boys in charro (our cowboys, the ones that taught American cowboys how to rope and herd cattle) outfits. The moustache and serape thing is quite dated and belongs to another era and more representive of the poor campesino segment of our culture. > > Kind of like dressing American men in bib oberalls, bare feet and a floppy straw hat with a piece of straw in his mouth. [O rly?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:General_emiliano_zapata_staff.jpg) Yup no real Mexican would wear a big mustache and a big sombrero. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/62 "2012-04-30T05:04:16Z")
Oh holy hell, we can’t have those high class Americans believing the outdated notion that Mexicans have poor, uneducated, serape wearing campesinos in the mix. That is a segment of our culture that needs to be forgotten, along with the moustache thing.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Molotok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Molotok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molotok)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/63 "2012-04-30T06:11:51Z")
This thread reminds me of a comedy skit on Australian TV, which caused some controversy: [HEY HEY IT'S SATURDAY HARRY CONNICK JR OFFENDED OVER THE JACKSON ACT - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEtjaZ8ZuNU) I personally don’t see the racism; but Americans especially got really fired up about it. Would offense at this video be too sensitive? ---
**Author:** ![living\_in\_hell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@living\_in\_hell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/living_in_hell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/64 "2012-04-30T14:57:15Z")
What I mean is, saying “hey there token different kid–stand up and speak on behalf of your people or any difference during diversity day!” is always more marginalizing than something like, “we are going to all take turns (all of us) bringing in a snack that our grandparents ate when they were our age”…or something like that. Then no one is marginalized and everyone learns. Yes, there is tons of literature to support this: if you want me to provide citations, I can. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/65 "2012-04-30T15:13:54Z")
Thing is, this same sort of stuff in cartoons of the past is considered racist. You know, the Indians in Peter Pan, the crows in Dumbo, or, probably the closest, the Asians in pretty much everything. I think the only reason this isn’t racist is that, unlike those people mentioned above, Mexican people were really never demonized or discriminated against in these costumes. Anti-Mexican racism focused more on looking poor and lazy than having a mustache and a sombrero. Then again, maybe I’m weird, but I do feel the twinge of racism when I watch, say, Speedy Gonzales. Then again, that might be the accent and the crafty, faux-stupid native stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/66 "2012-04-30T16:40:50Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [O rly?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:General_emiliano_zapata_staff.jpg) > Yup no real Mexican would wear a big mustache and a big sombrero. > :dubious: Zapata has been dead for nearly a hundred years but yeah, that’s relevant. About as much as dressing up young American boys like Teddy Roosevelt. My point isn’t to deny or hide the existence of poor and uneducated citizens. It is simply to point out that there are many more aspects of our society that are viewed in a more positive and indicative manner of who we are. I am Mexican, born and raised. Are you? I wear a mustache. I don’t own a big sombrero or a serape. In fact in my drive around Guadalajara this morning I didn’t see one Emiliano Zapata look alike. Not one man with a large sombrero and serape. Lots of mustaches. My wife owns 3 very old serapes that belonged to her uncle, keepsakes of the family. He also had a mustache, had a large sombrero and wore nothing but huaraches. He also never attended school and couldn’t read or write. But he passed away many years ago. His grandchildren all have at least finished high school and several have university degrees. None live on the small rancho their parents left years ago. Is there a problem with being represented in a manner that is probably far more accurate of present day Mexican men? I am not offended by the presentation of Mexicans in the school show. That is typical in your country. We are a nation of gardeners and maids to most people in the US. But at least they didn’t have the boys all come out with water dripping off their backs. ---
**Author:** ![living\_in\_hell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@living\_in\_hell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/living_in_hell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/67 "2012-04-30T16:43:09Z")
I just realized that the stereotype of Mexicans I had always seen growing up was that they were tired and lazy–sleeping sitting up with the sombrero down over their eyes. In fact that’s what Speedy’s mouse friends were like, right? (wait–werent they also drunk!!!) I wonder what the thought process was around creating Speedy, as he defied the stereotypes. Hmmm ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/68 "2012-04-30T17:54:27Z")
I don’t think it’s posisble to do this without using “old” costumes. Otherwise every country would show up in Western-style business suits or maybe designer blue jeans. Like I said, the standard for USA is Southern belles and tri-corn hats or cowboy outfits. CBE and Florez, what costume do you recommend? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/69 "2012-04-30T18:25:05Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I don’t think it’s posisble to do this without using “old” costumes. Otherwise every country would show up in Western-style business suits or maybe designer blue jeans. Like I said, the standard for USA is Southern belles and tri-corn hats or cowboy outfits. > > CBE and Florez, what costume do you recommend? Exactly. I do business around the world, and we are all wearing a suit. If you take a picture, you can’t tell the difference. That in itself is a good lesson for kids. But if you are doing some sort of an international pageant / dress up / draw the picture - kids will take the traditional dress images. The Scottish kids will have a kilt and bagpipes (and the Irish might too). The Irish kid might also be holding a potato. The Japanese girl will be wearing a kimono. The Chinese kid might have a Mao suit on or a robe (depending on which version of China he wants to represent). The Japanese boy will have a robe as well. Yeah, the kid with Mexico might have a serape/poncho (I own two myself bought at a Navajo pow wow). I love them, and use them camping. If you want to portray the Americans - the Cowboy is the first that comes to mind thanks to Hollywood. The fact that a lot of the original Cowboys were Hispanic or Black Freedmen is irrelevant when you are up against John Ford movies. After that, the rest of our images are more location specific (surfers for California, something for Hollywood, perhaps a farmer in overalls for the midwest, a soldier’s uniform since we play the role of the world’s cop). ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/70 "2012-04-30T19:24:33Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Dressing as a _charro_ is more appropriate than as a poor, uneducated, serape wearing campesino. Of course to many Americans we are a nation of gardeners and maids so they obviously hold a different view of how to represent us. Campesino is a term used for a class or social category describing a group of people who became unified politically for a time in post revolutionary Mexico. For example agrarismo in the state of Michoacan in the 1920s. IMO, people with rural, poor, and/or laborers in their background have nothing to be ashamed of, and my take is that children dressed like Emiliano Zapata are comparable to children dressed like Abraham Lincoln. Historical heroic figures are not regulated to one class background, and is it just a myth that Abraham Lincoln was born in a one room log cabin in Kentucky? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/71 "2012-04-30T19:32:13Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > As a Mexican I would say that if the class was looking for traditional dress as apparently they did with the girls, they should have dressed the boys in charro (our cowboys, the ones that taught American cowboys how to rope and herd cattle) outfits. The moustache and serape thing is quite dated and belongs to another era and more representive of the poor campesino segment of our culture. > > Kind of like dressing American men in bib oberalls, bare feet and a floppy straw hat with a piece of straw in his mouth. Back on page one, I noted that mariachis traded the campesino outfits for elegant charro attire about the time American C&W artists adapted western wear–rather than overalls. However, even the relatively inexpensive [trajes](http://mariachiconnection.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&zenid=j1sq5inii7i8bnsdf260m2h5d2) worn by young American mariachis are too expensive for an elementary school program… ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/72 "2012-05-01T11:06:23Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Here’s the thing - you can’t do that show without stereotypes. At some point, you have to accept the fact that we need some visual to attach to each country, because that’s the way the human brain works. More likely it’s because countries are essentially governments holding or asserting sovereignty over a particular geographical area. There’s not much visual about that except for the imaginary lines they’ve drawn on the map to stake out their claims. > [@](#): > > The right answer then, is simply to allow each country to define for itself what that visual will be, rather than peremptorily assigning one to it. > > [Folk costume - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_costume) > > It gets a little political at times… I’d say it gets a little political _all_ the time, since there is not a one-to-one mapping of cultures to countries. Most national borders include communities from several cultures, be they indigenous or immigrant, and more often than not split the indigenous ones down the middle too. There are countries with dozens of indigenous cultural and ethnic groups, each with their own folk costume, none of which can be said to be representative of the country as a whole. And conversely there are large ethnic groups whose population straddles a national border; in some cases they may be the largest ethnic group in both areas, leading to two separate countries with the same “national costume”. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/73 "2012-05-01T12:47:46Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Campesino is a term used for a class or social category describing a group of people who became unified politically for a time in post revolutionary Mexico. > For example agrarismo in the state of Michoacan in the 1920s. > IMO, people with rural, poor, and/or laborers in their background have nothing to be ashamed of, > and my take is that children dressed like Emiliano Zapata are comparable to children dressed like Abraham Lincoln. > Historical heroic figures are not regulated to one class background, and is it just a myth that Abraham Lincoln was born in a one room log cabin in Kentucky? How odd that a Mexican like yourself would compare Zapata with Lincoln when here in México Benito Juárez has always been the person referred to as the Mexican Abraham Lincoln. Your Mexican history is lacking. I have never claimed nor do I feel that campesinos have something to be ashamed of. You have missed my point completely. It is how Americans perceive Mexicans. To you we are poor, rural laborers when in reality there is much more depth to our national identity. For the most part, we as people and a country hold little interest for most Americans so obviously your understanding of our culture is superficial at best. Sombreros, ponchos (serapes) and tacos is about it for our next door neighbors to the north. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/74 "2012-05-01T12:59:35Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > As a Mexican I would say that if the class was looking for traditional dress as apparently they did with the girls, they should have dressed the boys in charro (our cowboys, the ones that taught American cowboys how to rope and herd cattle) outfits. The moustache and serape thing is quite dated and belongs to another era and more representive of the poor campesino segment of our culture. > > Kind of like dressing American men in bib oberalls, bare feet and a floppy straw hat with a piece of straw in his mouth. Well, they were going for “typical rural person who fought in the Revolution” – hence the wooden, hand-hewn toy “rifles” – so not _charro_ (that’s quite specific to the horse-training culture of Jalisco state), closer to a\* campesino\* outfit (of which there are many types) with some simple military additions. Not sure why you think “traditional” and “campesino” are mutually exclusive categories. Sounds like your narrow definition of _traditional_ is “a particular ‘high-class’ tradition which happens to be used more than any other to represent the national ‘soul’ in many situations, but not in all”. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/75 "2012-05-01T13:12:31Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > How odd that a Mexican like yourself would compare Zapata with Lincoln when here in México Benito Juárez has always been the person referred to as the Mexican Abraham Lincoln. Your Mexican history is lacking. > > I have never claimed nor do I feel that campesinos have something to be ashamed of. You have missed my point completely. It is how Americans perceive Mexicans. To you we are poor, rural laborers when in reality there is much more depth to our national identity. For the most part, we as people and a country hold little interest for most Americans so obviously your understanding of our culture is superficial at best. Sombreros, ponchos (serapes) and tacos is about it for our next door neighbors to the north. Actually, **florez** seems more aware than you are that “traditions” of the rural poor are not something to be ashamed of anymore, but rather to be celebrated like any other. I see where your well-intentioned instinct is coming from, but don’t you see that you are just perpetuating the very dichotomy you wish to eradicate? The mention of Benito Juarez happens to be perfectly apt. He was born exactly 200 meters away from the exact primary school where I saw those kids in their Revolutionary outfit. There’s a book called _Sons of the Sierra_, by historian Patrick McNamara, which describes exactly why the folks from this part of Oaxaca (Zapotecs, mostly, but some Chinantecs and Mixes as well) are so proud of their “campesino” traditions. The book focuses on the pre-revolutionary Porfiriato period, but touches on other periods as well. Maybe you’re right in that expressions of campesino pride might occasionally reinforce outdated stereotypes in the minds of a few lazy gringos (about “lazy” Indians or whatever), but 99 times out of 100, they will DESTROY those stereotypes, rather than reinforce them, even if they do conform to the stereotype in a few very superficial ways (like, say, a machete, or a hat – not ncessarily a sombrero – or eating tortillas) – harmless things which also happen to be a part of culture for many campesinos. (Not many serapes in the Sierra Norte/Juarez, though. Other parts of Oaxaca, maybe.) And it is true that you can go too far the other way, by _romanticizing_ campesinos and their practices. Then, you run the danger of sticking them in a box, and then dismissing or condemning them when they get cable TV or wear city clothers or earn a business degree or whatever else doesn’t conform to our idealistic, and confining, expectations. If that’s what you’re worried about, okay, I hear you. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/76 "2012-05-01T14:30:31Z")
(Apologies for the triple post.) It occurs to me that **CBEscapee** is concerned about something quite specific: He/she wants to make sure that non-Mexicans (such as the OP’s child’s class) are exposed to the FULL RANGE of what Mexicans are. That’s a fair concern, in my opinion. It might be a good idea to somehow include characters in the class gathering which represent, say, middle-class, urbanized, globalized modern Mexicans, who are shop owners, electricians, doctors, etc. Not sure how to mork that into the “Revolution-era” theme, though. Maybe have one child be the “narrator”, and have the child start the play by announcing, “My name is Irena Hernandez” (or whatever), “and I am a documentary film-maker, born to a middle class family in Monterrey and educated at the University of Veracruz in Xalapa. My films have been featured in Sundance and Cannes. I would like to present to you some scenes from our revolution of a hundred years ago, specifically scenes of rural farmers who joined Zapata’s army to defend their lands against the rich hacienda owners. (They did get their lands in the end, but we were nice to the hacienda owners, too – this isn’t some Bolshevik uprising here!)”. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/77 "2012-05-01T14:42:18Z")
I think that there are people walking around looking to be offended. If children dressing up to represent your nationality in a stereotypicaLway is the worst thing that you’ve got to worry about IRL then I envy you. I remember on a trip to Spain being incredibly disapponted because everyone wasn’t walking round dressed as Flamenco dancers or Bull Fighters. I mean, I really expected to see them dressed like that going to work in offices etc. Honestly. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/78 "2012-05-01T15:38:52Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Actually, **florez** seems more aware than you are that “traditions” of the rural poor are not something to be ashamed of anymore, but rather to be celebrated like any other. I see where your well-intentioned instinct is coming from, but don’t you see that you are just perpetuating the very dichotomy you wish to eradicate? I am in no way ashamed of our rural traditions and the people who represent them. Never have and never will be. I have already stated that. It is the ingrained stereotype of Mexicans in American’s minds that I am pointing out. If you want to see, and I am sure you did, young people dressed in revolutionary era clothing then you will have no problem seeing plenty of that on the 20th of November when fake mustaches, wooden rifles or machetes and sombreros are worn by the boys and the girls portray the _adelitas_ to celebrate the _día de la revolución_. People have posted that a good example of Americans would be the cowboy. I say _charro/mariachi_ outfits would be a good example of mexican culture. But any example of traditional dress would be fine. If the teacher was truly interested in broadening the knowledge of the students of our traditional dress (and country in general) then a simple Google search of “ropa típica méxico” will give many examples. You must scroll a long way to find the serape and sombrero as worn by the students. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/79 "2012-05-01T15:59:13Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I am in no way ashamed of our rural traditions and the people who represent them. Never have and never will be. I have already stated that. It is the ingrained stereotype of Mexicans in American’s minds that I am pointing out…People have posted that a good example of Americans would be the cowboy. I say _charro/mariachi_ outfits would be a good example of mexican culture. But any example of traditional dress would be fine. If the teacher was truly interested in broadening the knowledge of the students of our traditional dress (and country in general) then a simple Google search of “ropa típica méxico” will give many examples. You must scroll a long way to find the serape and sombrero as worn by the students. Got it. I pretty much agree with you (as you can see, especially by the third of my three recent posts). In any case, we can all agree the play as presented in the OP doesn’t rise to the level of being “offensive” (except to a few very sensitive people – who may be overly sensitive for understandable personal reasons.) Just maybe “could have been done even better, no big deal.” Simply doing anything to frame the costumes chosen as being particular to a time, place, and people, rather than representing all that Mexico has to offer, would be really cool. Do you like my “modern Mexican documentary film-maker as introducer of the play” idea? (I realize “play” is too grand a term for the chaotic kiddy music-and-dance routine we’re talking about here, but you know whatI mean.) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907/80 "2012-05-01T17:41:10Z")
[QUOTE=florez] Historical heroic figures are not regulated to one class background, and is it just a myth that Abraham Lincoln was born in a one room log cabin in Kentucky? [/QUOTE] No, it’s true. In fact, he built it himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-offensive-or-am-i-too-sensitive/619907.md?page=5)