# Is this photo post-mortem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315 "2008-10-10T14:07:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sublata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Sublata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublata)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/1 "2008-10-10T14:07:38Z")
I recently acquired [this antique photograph](http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr200/Sublata/tintype.jpg) and I am about 80% convinced it’s post-mortem, for various reasons – the blank, unfocused eyes, the base of the stand just visible behind his right foot, the lump under the right side of his coat that is probably some kind of support, the swollen, waxy appearance of his left hand – but that 20% doubt consists of me wondering: How did they get his head to stay up straight? It has no visible means of support; could that just be the effect of rigor mortis? If he is in rigor mortis, how can his right hand look so relaxed and natural? And the base of that stand doesn’t look wide enough to support the upright weight of an adult. Anyone with more knowledge than I have of rigor mortis or memorial photography – what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/2 "2008-10-10T14:14:35Z")
Memorial photography was very popular in the 1800’s but I have never seen one that was posed in a standing position like that. I don’t think it is possible to create the pose you have linked to without obvious external supports. I vote for an odd looking fellow who is very much alive. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/3 "2008-10-10T14:14:52Z")
How could anyone know for sure? Looks plausibly alive to me, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/4 "2008-10-10T14:17:41Z")
My guess is it was taken with a lokg exposure so that the seat-prop was to help the subject stand still and that the eyes moved during the exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/5 "2008-10-10T14:22:09Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > My guess is it was taken with a long exposure so that the **seat-prop was to help the subject stand still** and that the eyes moved during the exposure. That was my thought as well. ---
**Author:** ![Galwegian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galwegian/32/3426_2.png) [@Galwegian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galwegian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/6 "2008-10-10T14:23:15Z")
Looks alive to me. But he looks like he has thyroid eye disease. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/7 "2008-10-10T14:25:03Z")
If his neck muscles were in full rigor (which they would\* need _to be in order to hold up the head) then his facial muscles would also be in rigor. When the facial muscles are in rigor, the face has a very distincitve grimace, which this man does_\* not \*\*have. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/8 "2008-10-10T14:27:32Z")
Creepy, but not nearly as creepy as some of the photographs (of living and dead people) from the book [Wisconsin Death Trip](http://www.wisconsindeathtrip.com/photos.html). ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/9 "2008-10-10T14:33:23Z")
Post-mortem photos (not posed) are common in Germany. I was surprised to see that in family albums there. ---
**Author:** ![Sublata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Sublata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublata)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/10 "2008-10-10T14:53:29Z")
You all have just about convinced me to change my mind. The thyroid eye disease is an interesting idea – I had also been wondering if severe cataracts could have something to do with his blank stare. I knew about the long exposures, and in early photography I’ve seen head supports to help people hold still; I’d just never seen such a large support for a standing subject – but then, if this poor guy had some other condition that made it especially difficult for him to stand upright or still, that might account for it. (Although, in that case, I wonder why he didn’t just pose seated?) ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/11 "2008-10-10T14:54:56Z")
I think one thing that makes this photo look so creepy is the eyes. This is probably an effect created by the long exposures necessary at the time. If the subject blinked during the exposure what you get is a sort of double exposure consisting of the subject’s open eyes superimposed on top of his eyelids. Looks creepy. [Here is a good example from Shorpy.](http://www.shorpy.com/node/4527?size=_original) YIKES! VINTAGE ZOMBIE SCHOOLCHILDREN! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/12 "2008-10-10T15:13:15Z")
Yeah, all the memorial photographs I’ve seen are of people in bed or in coffins, not, urgh, standing up with armatures and such. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/13 "2008-10-10T15:44:02Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > Creepy, but not nearly as creepy as some of the photographs (of living and dead people) from the book [Wisconsin Death Trip](http://www.wisconsindeathtrip.com/photos.html). ooo i netflixed that … seriously good. i really recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/14 "2008-10-10T15:58:23Z")
I don’t have Netflix, but you just sold me a book. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/15 "2008-10-10T15:58:24Z")
He also appear to be holding his hands and arms fairly naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Sublata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Sublata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublata)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/16 "2008-10-10T16:10:31Z")
Thanks for the zombie schoolchildren pic, NicePete. Zsofia, I have seen memorial photography of people propped up in chairs, one guy posed to look as if he were holding a newspaper (in Dr. Stanley Burns’ collections of memorial photos), but, true, never standing. OK, guys, you’ve sold me. It’s a living person who blinked and/or has eye disease and perhaps another (palsy or paralysis?) condition as well. ---
**Author:** ![4everkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/76d3ee/32.png) [@4everkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4everkid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/17 "2008-10-10T17:15:15Z")
I love looking at these old pics. Something that stands out to me is how the guy is slumping and overly relaxed, as if he has been standing a long time. His shoulders are droopy, and his chin is doubled. Would it have killed the photographer to tell this man to button his vest? Also, time for a new background screen. This “window” is both wrinkled and ripped. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/18 "2008-10-10T17:32:47Z")
I don’t think he’s dead. The strange looking eyes are a result of his eyes moving and blinking during a long exposure. In all the post mortem photos from the same era I’ve ever seen, those corpses that have their eyes open have very clear eyes because of the lack of blinking and motion. Some really good examples [here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/mement0_m0ri/sets/72157594539535491/). As for his general air of slovenliness and the rather ratty background, who knows? Maybe the fellow is drunk and on holiday. Perhaps he decided to stop into a cheap (which in this context also means ratty) souvenier photo place and get a picture taken. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/19 "2008-10-10T17:48:58Z")
The stand is a support for the head, with adjustable caliper thingies so that the head won’t wander during the long exposure. The guy is very much alive, as evidence by him standing. He just ugly. ---
**Author:** ![rainy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rainy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315/20 "2008-10-10T17:51:59Z")
Slight hijack - how long were the exposure times? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-photo-post-mortem/467315.md?page=2)