# Is this public display non-religious? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707 "2012-12-11T15:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/1 "2012-12-11T15:47:07Z")
There is a public area in my city with two major holiday displays. On one end of the plaza is an evergreen tree, fully decked out with lights. No other ornaments such as angels. On the other end is a giant menorah. They’re both quite beautiful and I like them both. But couldn’t the menorah be considered a religious display? How can the city get away with putting it up? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/2 "2012-12-11T16:10:50Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How can the city get away with putting it up? Because no one has challenged it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/3 "2012-12-11T16:11:32Z")
The Menorah is religious. It’s only up because no one has objected yet. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/4 "2012-12-11T16:28:08Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How can the city get away with putting it up? Are you sure that the city put it up? Maybe they just allow a group to use the space. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/5 "2012-12-11T16:40:03Z")
Because the Menorah is a Jewish symbol and not a Christian one. The usual suspects usually only target things like nativity scenes on public property. Even that only happens in some parts of the country. They are still fine in most places. Someone would have to be a special kind of dick to complain about a Menorah and I don’t think it would go over well even to those who staunchly oppose (Christian) religious displays on public property because it is more acceptable to target the majority rather than the minority in these kinds of crusades. You could also argue that the Menorah isn’t truly religious at all in the first place any more than a Christmas tree is. Both of them are symbols associated with a religion but not an essential part of it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/6 "2012-12-11T16:45:52Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Are you sure that the city put it up? Maybe they just allow a group to use the space. I’m not sure. Here’s a [link](http://www.gardenclubbackbay.org/2012/12/07/sunday-december-9-500-pm-kindling-of-the-boston-menorah-at-copley-square/). ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/7 "2012-12-11T17:15:39Z")
Copley Square is a public area, but it is maintained by a private organization: [Friends of Copley Square](http://http://friendsofcopleysquare.org/) So while on public land, it is typically promoted by private organizations. However, the holiday lighting is also presented by Mayor Menino (see link above), but is promoted as a _holiday tree_ lighting. I’m not sure a Christmas/Holiday Tree is a religious aspect of Christianity - I always thought it was (at least in America) linked with Santa Claus and other pagan rituals. As to the Menorah, it is promoted by the Boston Chabad, [http://www.bostonchabad.org/](http://www.bostonchabad.org/) There are two distinct Menorahs, one is a seven candle and the other is a nine candle, representing different things, but either could be religious in use: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Menorah (Temple), a seven-branched lampstand used in the ancient Tabernacle in the desert and Temple in Jerusalem, a symbol of Judaism since ancient times and the emblem of the modern state of Israel Menorah (Hanukkah), a nine-branched candelabrum used on the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah, commemorating the above [/QUOTE] [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorah) A few twists and turns in the presentation and could be argued either way I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/8 "2012-12-11T17:46:11Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Because the Menorah is a Jewish symbol and not a Christian one. This is not true, as Jewish displays have been targeted in the same manner as Christian displays. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/9 "2012-12-11T17:53:37Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Someone would have to be a special kind of dick to complain about a Menorah and I don’t think it would go over well even to those who staunchly oppose (Christian) religious displays on public property because it is more acceptable to target the majority rather than the minority in these kinds of crusades. Well chalk me up as a special kind of dick, because a Menorah is a religious display and I would object to it being displayed by a city. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/10 "2012-12-11T19:48:02Z")
The Christmas tree is, in my opinion, no longer a Christian symbol. The menorah IS a religious symbol. Why is the menorah still up? Because Christians rarely get upset by displays of Jewish symbols on public property, and won’t complain. Many Jews WILL complain vociferously about displays of Christian symbols on public grounds\*. Public officials respond by doing what will cause the least uproar. - I’d wager that Jews are FAR more likely to complain about the menorah than Christians are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/11 "2012-12-11T20:15:23Z")
Has the city denied anyone the right to put _their_ particular symbol up? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/12 "2012-12-11T20:23:25Z")
They’re both symbols associated with specific religious holidays. Doesn’t bother me. Those lawn reindeer bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/13 "2012-12-11T20:24:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has the city denied anyone the right to put _their_ particular symbol up? I don’t think so, because Copley Square is maintained by “Friends of Copley Square” a private non-profit. > **[Friends of Copley Square](https://www.friendsofcopleysquare.org/)** ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/14 "2012-12-11T20:38:22Z")
Slight change of subject, but I think it’s relevant. Every year, at the state agency I work for, there’s a holiday luncheon/party. There’s always some singing: invariably, the office choir does two totally secular winter songs (“Frosty the Snowman” and “Jingle Bells,” or two similar songs) and then a Hannukah song. Now, there’s no point getting outraged over this, but I could never understand why there was any need for a Hannukah song when the “Christmas” songs were so totally secular and never even alluded to Jesus. Again, it comes down to this: Christians won’t complain about hearing a Jewish song, but Jews often WILL complain about hearing Christian songs. To avoid negative feedback, the choir pointedly avoids Christian songs, but sees nothing wrong with singing a Hannukah song. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/15 "2012-12-12T03:15:45Z")
Heck, even schools can get away with sacred songs, and not just Christmas ones. That’s definitely restrictive. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/16 "2012-12-12T03:22:22Z")
They shoulda done a dreidel. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/17 "2012-12-12T03:27:04Z")
A lot of people are saying here that it’s only the Christian symbols that get targeted, not those of other religions, but I think it’s quite the opposite. Consider all of the communities that _don’t_ have a menorah on display. Not only are such displays attacked, they’re attacked from such a high level that they usually don’t get put up in the first place. And it’s even worse for other religions: Most of the same people who would be indignant about a Christian symbol being removed from public property would be absolutely aghast at the prospect of a Muslim symbol in the same place. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/18 "2012-12-12T11:37:44Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Every year, at the state agency I work for, there’s a holiday luncheon/party. There’s always some singing: invariably, the office choir does two totally secular winter songs (“Frosty the Snowman” and “Jingle Bells,” or two similar songs) and then a Hannukah song. > > Now, there’s no point getting outraged over this, but I could never understand why there was any need for a Hannukah song when the “Christmas” songs were so totally secular and never even alluded to Jesus. Just out of curiosity, \*what \*Hannukah song? Any chance it was also secular? If it was sung in English, I’m betting yes. > [@](#): > > Again, it comes down to this: Christians won’t complain about hearing a Jewish song, but Jews often WILL complain about hearing Christian songs. To avoid negative feedback, the choir pointedly avoids Christian songs, but sees nothing wrong with singing a Hannukah song. Bullshit. You are complaining about hearing Jewish songs RIGHT NOW. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/19 "2012-12-12T11:49:19Z")
A little shameless promotion of a related and lonely thread I started: [Festivus pole erected on government property adjacent to manger and menorah](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675292) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707/20 "2012-12-12T12:11:49Z")
Cuz’ maybe you live in a cool town where nobody gives a shit about stuff like this? Must be nice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-public-display-non-religious/643707.md?page=2)