# Is this racial profiling? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423 "2011-08-28T22:23:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/61 "2011-08-29T18:20:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not saying any of that. I’m not generalizing anything, just talking about the specifics of this one case. In this one case, no other element would have caused fear but his physical appearance. No white person reading a book on bi-planes would have caused hysterical terror in a flight attendant. We don’t know the book Gilbert was reading (though Amazon offers up [a few](http://www.amazon.com/Polish-Aircraft-1893-1939-Jerzy-Cynk/dp/0370000854/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314641763&sr=1-1) [possibilities](http://www.amazon.com/White-Eagles-Aircraft-Operations-1918-1939/dp/1902109732/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314641763&sr=1-5)), but if the flight attendant was stupid enough to mistake those books as terrorist wank material, I don’t think Gilbert’s skin color was the deciding factor. My grandma could have been reading my little cousin “Timmy’s First Airplane Ride” and the flight attendant would have freaked. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/62 "2011-08-29T18:49:24Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > We don’t know the book Gilbert was reading (though Amazon offers up [a few](http://www.amazon.com/Polish-Aircraft-1893-1939-Jerzy-Cynk/dp/0370000854/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314641763&sr=1-1) [possibilities](http://www.amazon.com/White-Eagles-Aircraft-Operations-1918-1939/dp/1902109732/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314641763&sr=1-5)), but if the flight attendant was stupid enough to mistake those books as terrorist wank material, I don’t think Gilbert’s skin color was the deciding factor. > > My grandma could have been reading my little cousin “Timmy’s First Airplane Ride” and the flight attendant would have freaked. Really? It doesn’t take a stretch of the imagination to think that we might just have a racist flight attendant on our hands. That’s not an outrageous suggestion. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She should be fired, and this guy should sue the airline into bankruptcy. For delaying his flight? And costing him some money? And emotional distress? I have no problem with this guy getting a 5 figure payment for his troubles. But millions (which is what you seem to be suggesting)? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/63 "2011-08-29T18:52:56Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Really? > > It doesn’t take a stretch of the imagination to think that we might just have a racist flight attendant on our hands. That’s not an outrageous suggestion. I didn’t say it was outrageous. I said that anyone who would freak out over an aviation history book (especially if it looks like the ones I found on Amazon) is likely so jumpy that his skin color was only a small part of the reasoning behind their freakout. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/64 "2011-08-29T19:01:37Z")
You’re assuming a priori that the flight attendant did freak out over an aviation history book, as opposed to her freaking out because the guy looked like he might be Arabic. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/65 "2011-08-29T19:02:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t need strengthening. It’s already airtight. > > You also don’t seem to know much about critical thinking, since you appear to be completely unaware that you don’t have to keep “imagining” explanations once you’ve already got one that’s perfectly adequate. Right, like the explanation that god created the universe. You are Þhe one with the critical thinking problem. You pick one possible explanation and believe that it can be the only explanation without any evidence that knocks out other possible explanations or makes the one you picked more likely. You have a faith-based position. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/66 "2011-08-29T19:05:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re assuming a priori that the flight attendant did freak out over an aviation history book, as opposed to her freaking out because the guy looked like he might be Arabic. I have to assume this flight attendant doesn’t freak out over every Arab-looking guy she sees or else he/she would have been in the news for something like this before. Unless this was their first flight. At which point they definitely need to be fired for being a crazy person. ---
**Author:** ![Bri2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/48db29/32.png) [@Bri2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bri2k)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/67 "2011-08-29T19:16:36Z")
Goodness knows if this was truly racial profiling or not, but it sure can be construed that way. I don’t blame Mr. Gilbert for feeling the way he did and I hope he gets reimbursed for his losses at a bare minimum. I’m a short white guy with a beard. Last winter, I took a flight to Vegas and bought a book on the Battle of Britain to read. No one said anything to me, but I did get pulled for the backscatter screen a couple days later while flying home. I think that had more to do with my Steelers shirt and the possibility that the TSA guy might’ve been a Jets fan (the Jets & Steelers were in a playoff game that night). I totally agree that security has become a fear-filled circus that doesn’t actually keep us safer. My ticket to Vegas was bought in advance and was round-trip from where I live. Any competent agency concerned with actual security could’ve checked all that out beforehand to see that I am zero threat. Bri2k ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/68 "2011-08-29T19:22:02Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I have to assume this flight attendant doesn’t freak out over every Arab-looking guy she sees or else he/she would have been in the news for something like this before. Unless this was their first flight. At which point they definitely need to be fired for being a crazy person. Right, but all it took was a book even vaguely related to something possibly terrorist that she freaked out. Sounds like she was looking for a reason to assume someone was a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/69 "2011-08-29T19:28:50Z")
> [@Bri2k](#): > > I totally agree that security has become a fear-filled circus that doesn’t actually keep us safer. My ticket to Vegas was bought in advance and was round-trip from where I live. Any competent agency concerned with actual security could’ve checked all that out beforehand to see that I am zero threat. What does that prove? Maybe you’re a terrorist who’s heard the “one-way ticket story” over the last decade and decided to be smarter about it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/70 "2011-08-29T19:36:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, like the explanation that god created the universe. No, not like that at all. Dreaming up magic fairies as creators of the universe is a perfect example (really THE classic example) of multiplying _entia_ beyond their necessity. “God” is _not_ an adequate explanation for the universe. In fact, it’s not an explanation at all. The universe can be explained without magic, therefore it’s unnecessary to hypothesize magic. Not that there’s actually any sensible analogous connection to this discussion, but I will reiterate that physical appearance is the only characteristic which it is reasonable to believe would cause a flight attendant to freak out over the other things. It is tendentious and disingenuous to pretend that the other factors, without his racial appearance would have incurred the same response. Having said that, your tortured attempt to somehow compare this assumption on my part (even if I’m wrong) to believing in magic fairies without evidence is strained and lame and doesn’t parse logically. It isn’t clever, it just shows your lack of experience in trying to argue philosphically. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/71 "2011-08-29T19:37:02Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Right, but all it took was a book even vaguely related to something possibly terrorist that she freaked out. Sounds like she was looking for a reason to assume someone was a terrorist. Right. His being Arab-ish looking maybe was enough to turn something innocuous if done by a really white guy into something sinister. This is how profiling usually works. It isn’t just “I’m going to investigate you for absolutely no reason.” It’s “I’m going to investigate you for doing X while I wouldn’t investigate another person for doing X because you look sinister because people who look like you just _are_.” Middle-aged white woman gets the benefit of the doubt. Middle-aged bearded brown man doesn’t. That’s racial profiling. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/72 "2011-08-29T20:20:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, not like that at all. Dreaming up magic fairies as creators of the universe is a perfect example (really THE classic example) of multiplying _entia_ beyond their necessity. “God” is _not_ an adequate explanation for the universe. In fact, it’s not an explanation at all. The universe can be explained without magic, therefore it’s unnecessary to hypothesize magic. > > Not that there’s actually any sensible analogous connection to this discussion, but I will reiterate that physical appearance is the only characteristic which it is reasonable to believe would cause a flight attendant to freak out over the other things. It is tendentious and disingenuous to pretend that the other factors, without his racial appearance would have incurred the same response. > > Having said that, your tortured attempt to somehow compare this assumption on my part (even if I’m wrong) to believing in magic fairies without evidence is strained and lame and doesn’t parse logically. It isn’t clever, it just shows your lack of experience in trying to argue philosphically. First, I agree that there is a lack of symmetry as it relates to creation of magical beings or not. But the point you keep missing is that there is perfect symmetry as it relates to evaluating possibilities and deciding on likely causes. That is, the Christian decides that “goddidit” is the only reasonable explanation and rejects other possibilities despite the lack of evidence for their chosen explanation, and you do the same thing with “it was racial profiling.” Second, you are getting too personal for this forum. Before you rag on my ability to make philosophical arguments, you ma want to remember which of us gets paid to exercise judgement in making and evaluating arguments and which of us gets paid to cook dinner for grandma. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/73 "2011-08-29T20:23:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Second, you are getting too personal for this forum. Before you rag on my ability to make philosophical arguments, you ma want to remember which of us gets paid to exercise judgement in making and evaluating arguments and which of us gets paid to cook dinner for grandma. This is why people shouldn’t junior moderate. It’s kind of obnoxious on its own, and when it’s coupled with an insulting comment, it looks even worse. You’re being a jerk. This is a formal warning: don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/74 "2011-08-29T20:25:13Z")
Diogenes, you’re assuming that the attendant would have reacted rationally (accepting the account provided) if the customer had been white. Why? Why isn’t it just as reasonable that the way she processed his reaction, and the book itself–however irrational that assessment was–was reason enough, as far as she was concerned? That’s the point. How do we know she doesn’t react like a scared kid to anyone reading a book on planes who avoided having her touch his carry-on bag? She’s a model of logic, except when blacks are concerned? Why is that the only plausible explanation? Why can’t she just be a non-racist nut? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/75 "2011-08-29T20:25:23Z")
ETA (balcakberry style): on the first part of my post above, it doesn’t matter that you don’t believe magical beings exist and you don’t think they are necessary to explain the universe existing. The christian does believe that. The parallel comes in how you and the christian stick to your beliefs without evidence for them simply because you believe they are the only possible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/76 "2011-08-29T20:39:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Diogenes, you’re assuming that the attendant would have reacted rationally (accepting the account provided) if the customer had been white. Why? Because nothing else was unusual or disturbing. Certainly not stuffing a fanny pack under a seat. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t it just as reasonable that the way she processed his reaction, and the book itself–however irrational that assessment was–was reason enough, as far as she was concerned? It’s not impossible, but I think the odds are so unlikely as to be easily dismissible. > [@](#): > > That’s the point. How do we know she doesn’t react like a scared kid to anyone reading a book on planes who avoided having her touch his carry-on bag? She’s a model of logic, except when blacks are concerned? Why is that the only plausible explanation? Why can’t she just be a non-racist nut? It’s not really that he was black, but that he had a beard and looked vaguely middle eastern. That fact, in itself, made her paranoid and overattentive to other details that would have been innocuous coming from a white person (or for that matter a black person who didn’t look middle eastern). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/77 "2011-08-29T20:40:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > ETA (balcakberry style): on the first part of my post above, it doesn’t matter that you don’t believe magical beings exist and you don’t think they are necessary to explain the universe existing. The christian does believe that. If the Christian believes it is _necessary_, then the Christian is simply misinformed and factually in error. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/78 "2011-08-29T20:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Justin Bailey** : > I have to assume this flight attendant doesn’t freak out over every Arab-looking guy she sees or else he/she would have been in the news for something like this before. Unless this was their first flight. At which point they definitely need to be fired for being a crazy person. And likewise, I have to assume that she doesn’t freak out every time she sees someone reading something that could vaguely at a stretch be slightly suspicious, or we’d have likewise heard about it. I mean, several folks in this thread have given examples of reading material they’ve had on planes that would be just as “interesting” as this case; it can’t be all that rare. The simplest explanation is that it was a combination of the book and his appearance: She saw someone who looked Arabic, and then due to her biases started looking extra-hard for things other than race she could pin her suspicion on. In previous cases she didn’t find anything, but in this case she did. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/79 "2011-08-29T20:51:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, like the explanation that god created the universe. No matter how many times you repeat it, that’s a ridiculous comparison. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > ETA (balcakberry style): on the first part of my post above, it doesn’t matter that you don’t believe magical beings exist and you don’t think they are necessary to explain the universe existing. The christian does believe that. The parallel comes in how you and the christian stick to your beliefs without evidence for them simply because you believe they are the only possible explanation. Except that the Christian does have a total lack of evidence. **Diogenes** on the other hand has the evidence of similar bigotry happening on a regular basis, and the fact that this fits the profile of a racist incident perfectly. Nor unlike the Christian does his explanation violate the laws of physics. They aren’t remotely comparable. I do think that **Diogenes** to be exaggerating in considering it absolutely certain; but I do consider racism to be _by far_ the most likely explanation. And I do agree that people are bending over backwards to find another explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423/80 "2011-08-29T20:52:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because nothing else was unusual or disturbing. Certainly not stuffing a fanny pack under a seat. But we have no indication that she singles out black guys for no reason at all. To her, this was alarming. > [@](#): > > It’s not impossible, but I think the odds are so unlikely as to be easily dismissible. Why? Why must irrational behavior have racism as the cause? I’m not saying it didn’t, but why must this instance be so? That’s where your assessment comes off the rails. It’s one thing to assess a series of similar events and say, “It’s not plausible that race didn’t play a part in some material number of these events.” It’s another to say, “This instance must have been racism.” I said at the start of this thread, the account was bizarre. It makes no sense. If some strange nut bursts into the room, shrieks, dances around on one foot, and then hits the only black guy there with a pie in the face, what do we conclude? Maybe the nut was racist. Maybe he was just a nut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racial-profiling/594423.md?page=5)