# Is this racism? (Texas Relays) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179 "2009-04-06T22:22:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/21 "2009-04-07T15:07:40Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I wish that white and black communities in America weren’t so self-segregating. How is this in any way unusual? You’ll find that all over the world. In the absence of coercion, most people will choose to associate with people like themselves, and this is true not only of race but of ethnicity, religion, social class, educational level, and other factors as well. This is just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/22 "2009-04-07T15:15:55Z")
In this case, it is young people associating with each other. As a middle-aged person, I can’t see any reason why I would enjoy participating in in hanging about with large numbers of them in a mall or on a street waiting for something exciting to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/23 "2009-04-07T16:04:56Z")
Meh. The same thing happens in Ireland when a traveller wedding happens. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/24 "2009-04-07T16:06:21Z")
Wouldn’t this be a golden opportunity for the black-owned, or at least non-racists, businesses to open shop and rake in the money? Reading the link it looks to me like that is what some businesses are doing. Yeah, there may be racism here although the linked article seems to be working pretty hard to find it (or imply it) with very little success. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/25 "2009-04-07T16:09:56Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > How is this in any way unusual? You’ll find that all over the world. In the absence of coercion, most people will choose to associate with people like themselves, and this is true not only of race but of ethnicity, religion, social class, educational level, and other factors as well. This is just human nature. I didn’t say it was unusual. I just wish it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/26 "2009-04-07T16:15:23Z")
I think there’s a pretty obvious element of racism, but there’s enough smug deniability as to prevent any legal remedy. Boycotts would probably be the only course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/27 "2009-04-07T16:18:06Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Meh. > The same thing happens in Ireland when a traveller wedding happens. I trust that this is not typical: [http://www.avalon5.com/weird-and-whacky/weird/would-you-raise-your-machetes-please-in-a-toast-to-the-bride-and-groom/](http://www.avalon5.com/weird-and-whacky/weird/would-you-raise-your-machetes-please-in-a-toast-to-the-bride-and-groom/) ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/28 "2009-04-07T16:19:08Z")
Whether or not it’s racist, if they’re all private businesses then they can make whatever decision suits them. The Texas Relays can always choose to move the event to another city that will welcome their business. Hopefully that would still be someplace in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/29 "2009-04-07T16:32:33Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > The Texas Relays can always choose to move the event to another city that will welcome their business. Hopefully that would still be someplace in Texas. Austin, Texas is probably the most diverse and liberal city in Texas and in this entire region of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/30 "2009-04-07T16:33:47Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I trust that this is not typical: [http://www.avalon5.com/weird-and-whacky/weird/would-you-raise-your-machetes-please-in-a-toast-to-the-bride-and-groom/](http://www.avalon5.com/weird-and-whacky/weird/would-you-raise-your-machetes-please-in-a-toast-to-the-bride-and-groom/) Fairly typical. It’s racist, but it’s far cheaper for hotel/restaurant owners to deny them entry and get sued, rather then have to rebuild the place afterwards. It’s more particular families though. They also have bare-knuckle boxing, which they now tape and sell. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fQzYnbljZ9Y/hqdefault.jpg "The Fighting Irish - Bare Knuckle Boxing - Traveller Tradition UK Ireland") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQzYnbljZ9Y) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ss-W5z_YE90/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ss-W5z_YE90?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/31 "2009-04-07T16:40:15Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Wouldn’t this be a golden opportunity for the black-owned, or at least non-racists, businesses to open shop and rake in the money? Reading the link it looks to me like that is what some businesses are doing. One of the businesses that closed is a reggae bar. Also, one of the local concert venues, Stubbs, tried to capitalize on the event a few years ago. They hosted a hip hop triple feature and had only 50 attendees for the 2,100 capacity venue. [QUOTE=shiftless] Yeah, there may be racism here although the linked article seems to be working pretty hard to find it (or imply it) with very little success. [/QUOTE] It’s not just the articles that are trying to find racism; the NAACP sees it as racist also. > [@](#): > > “Unfortunately, it gives this city a very negative reputation when it comes to treating and welcoming African Americans,” said Nelson Linder, president of the Austin chapter of the NAACP. > > Linder said that for years, Texas Relays participants have said that African Americans who attend don’t feel warmly welcomed by Austin. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/32 "2009-04-07T16:46:07Z")
Is what I see in the videos typical of African Americans? I very much doubt it. A more honest appraisal would be to state that the shop owners are biased against a very large mob of youth hanging about looking for excitement, which has included violence. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/33 "2009-04-07T17:16:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think there’s a pretty obvious element of racism, but there’s enough smug deniability as to prevent any legal remedy. It’s not racist if it’s both true and relevant, and an increased threat of violence is certainly relevant to a business. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/34 "2009-04-07T17:42:45Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s not racist if it’s both true and relevant, It seems to me that depends on how you define “racist.” I would guess that most “racists” are practicing so-called "[rational discrimination."](http://www.nationalreview.com/09oct95/feature.html) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/35 "2009-04-07T19:27:38Z")
For what it’s worth, I was on campus Friday night, while the Relays were going on. It just so happens that Jerry Seinfeld was doing a show on campus, at the Bass concert hall, a few hundred yards from the stadium where the track meet was taking place. I have no first-hand knowledge of what’s gone on at Highland Mall in the past, but the crowd at the Relays was no more rowdy or dangerous-looking than the crowd for Seinfeld. Both groups looked to me like ordinary, polite, middle-class people out for a good time. My group was a bit older and paler, of course. Still, I was right there WITH the Relays’ fans, and I saw absolutely nothing to be nervous about. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/36 "2009-04-07T19:44:27Z")
Postscript: I hardly ever shop at Highland Mall any more. I went there regularly when I first moved to Austin, in 1986, but today, it’s almost never the most convenient place for me to shop. But I can offer you a bit of history: when I moved here, it was considered a nice, upscale, state-of-the-art mall. Over time, however, bigger malls in more affluent areas have taken away much of their business. As a result, they started getting a reputation as the “black” mall (as opposed to the much “whiter” Barton Creek and Lakeline Malls). Was this an accurate tag? I don’t know. But that reputation spread, and it’s definitely hurt their business. The entire area has become seedier; upscale businesses and restaurants in the neighborhood have largely disappeared and been replaced by more low-rent businesses. This has definitely bothered store owners and managers at Highland Mall, who have resorted to various (sometimes silly) tactics to dissuade young black shoppers from coming there. They’ve actually been charged with (no joke!) playing Barry Manilow and Barbra Streisand-type music over the speakers, hoping black kids would hate the songs and leave! So, Highland Mall has had racial issues for some tiem now. For what it’s worth, the few times I’ve been there in the past 5 years, I never felt threatened. There DID seem to be far more black shoppers than at other malls, but it never seemed like a dangerous place. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179/37 "2009-04-08T02:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > The basic argument is that these businesses only closed because the crowd is majority black. The businesses argue that they have to hire additional security due to the crowds but that sales during the event weekend are usually very low. Basically, they are saying that the kids all hang out at the mall, don’t buy anything, and scare away the rest of their customers. Some of the businesses also argue that their employees don’t want to work because they are afraid of the crowds. > > Is this a legitimate reason to close, or is it racism? Austin hosts many other large events during the year and businesses don’t close; they look at the events as money making opportunities. Despite what people might think, malls are not intended to be social gathering spots. They are intended to be retail shopping centers. Granted, they are often used as meeting spots, but malls/shopping centers have an expectation that socializers will also buy something. If the stores/malls/other places have experienced low sales, or loss of inventory, or fights and disturbances in past years during this event, then closing early is not racist, it’s a business decision. If I had a business in that mall, I would certainly try to publicize it as giving my employees time off to watch the events, as someone said upthread. If sales were UP during this event, then I would imagine that the mall would be open, and have incentives for people to come in. I would also urge the NAACP and anyone else who thinks this decision is racist to provide gathering spots where people could hang out, free of charge. Sure, they might have to spend some money to rent space, but that’s what they expect the mall to do, right? I used to go shopping at various malls. I quit doing so when the malls were so crowded with youths that I found it impossible to navigate. They weren’t shoppers, as they almost never carried bags. I also got tired of being hit up for spare change. In some malls, unaccompanied minors are not allowed during certain hours. Some people detest that policy, but I find it reasonable, and would patronize a mall that had such, if it was convenient to me and had stores I like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism-texas-relays/492179.md?page=1)