# Is This Racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946 "2003-06-28T07:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![vivian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3e96dc/32.png) [@vivian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/81 "2003-06-29T20:44:19Z")
this really should be in the Great Debates section…its a never ending arguement that you can’t really post cites for. Even as a Black woman who’s read that book, I’m not even going to add my two cents to the actual question itself. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/82 "2003-06-29T21:26:53Z")
But while we’ve got some sort of temporary peace going, let’s all be honest with ourselves: A lot of us ranted (It’s the pit, after all.), a lot of us misrepresented a little, and we _all_ took the OP far enough off course as to be basically unrecognizable. I know I, for one, did when I said I was condemning the book. OK, that was wrong, too. I _do_ condemn the attitudes, though. Once again, I was going off of the OP. I have to read the book to comment further. **monstro** , as far as this is concerned: > [@](#): > > You are ranting now. Where have I said that white people are the blame for anything, or that black men are flocking to white women? These are constructions of your imagination. Your last post is full of strawmen. I don’t want to ruin the peace of the morning by ripping them (and you) apart. Well, I guess that’s my fifthretraction. I went back and reread the thread, and it turned out to be someone else who suggested that. That’s my fault and I apologize. I still stand by this, though: The whole beauty thing is not a racial issue. Feminist issue, certainly. But to say that it means anything that “the ugliest white woman in the world” could have fair skin, long flowing hair or European facial features (whatever _those_ are) is to be naive about what constitutes beauty according to the fashion magazines. Possession of all three of these things–never mind one–doesn’t guarentee anyone anything as far as _that_hyper-Machiavellan world is concerned. And, I’ll reiterate that past a certain point, it doesn’t matter anyway. The fashion world doesn’t have _that_ much to do with what’s perceived in the real world as beautiful. Different people have different tastes, and the world is just too complicated to pigeonhole beauty with anything approaching the specificity you’d find in a fashion magazine. Good thing, too, or I’d venture to say that _none_ of us would _ever_ get laid, let alone married. Do the women have the right to feel threatened nevertheless? Well, they have the right, sure. We _all_ have the right to be wrong. As far as the racism thing, well, yeah, maybe I went a little far on that too. She _was_ talking out of anger (I found the book and looked that part up). And yet . . . there’s an old saying that tells us “Never forget what a man tells you in anger.” Not because you should hold it against him, but because it gives a bit of insight as to who he is when the veneer of civility disappears. To take the example of my Platoon Leader. Let’s say I found out he was sleeping with my girlfriend. I would rant. Who wouldn’t rant? But what would I say? If I called him a sonavabitch creep who’d fuck anything with a body temperature higher than her IQ, that’s one thing. If I called him a cottonpickin’ black shit who couldn’t keep his hands off white women, that’s something else. I guess the difference is how quickly I bring up race when I get mad. Would I? Let’s just say that if I did, I’d be thinking about that remark for a l-o-o-o-ng time. In my mind, there’s no excuse. Not at the heart of the matter. And if it seems like I’m harping on it again and again and again, that’s because it’s what I feel lies at the heart of the matter here. (Not that it would matter to the Platoon Leader. First of all, he’d never in a million years have done something like that, and secondly, _his_ wife would see to it that he had more to worry about than some lower enlisted’s ignorance. Still, that’s neither here nor there, is it? I’m sorry things got this far out of hand. It wasn’t my original intention. This is one wrecked train I could have gotten off a few stops ago but didn’t. I, for one, would like to “Move. The. Fuck. On.” ---
**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/83 "2003-06-30T08:10:29Z")
I had a busy weekend and I see my thread lived on without me. 😃 Thank you to **Monstro** and to **Linty Fresh** for both making valid points, and for refusing to let this thread get hysterical. FTR, I finished the book yesterday. I wouldn’t have finished it if I hadn’t enjoyed it; I’ve got no qualms about abandoning a book I don’t find entertaining. What I mentioned in the OP wasn’t sufficient for me to put the book down. And yes, I think it qualifies as a glimpse into a world I know very little about. I’ve got a lot more knowledge of the Latin/Hispanic culture than I do black cultures, b/c of the low population of the latter here in South Texas vs. Caucasian and Hispanic. But I have witnessed a lot of racism first hand–being a white girl who’s engaged to a Hispanic guy will do that for you, particularly when your parents disown you for it–and frankly I can count on one hand the works of _modern_ fiction I’ve read that are this openly, casually racist. Towards any race; not just towards mine. (And I think we all agreed the characters in _Waiting to Exhale_ are racist.) And yes, I found it a bit appalling. I make no apologies for that. Perhaps I shouldn’t have found it _surprising,_ but I did. Real/true or not, encountering this type of casual racism makes me cringe, because I see no honor in it and I find it difficult to dismiss as just “the way some people feel.” And yes, it made me uncomfortable. Going through what I’ve gone through in the last five years with my fiance has made me acutely sensitive to racism, in myself and in others, and it’s made me question the easy, casual relationship a lot of us have with it. As long as we’re among friends, it’s _okay_ to crack jokes about it; as long as we’re “just upset,” we don’t really mean it and no one should take it seriously. It’s therefore natural to feel this way; it may not be right, but dammit, we’ve been conditioned to feel it and we shouldn’t really worry about it. Too much. I have issues with that, and not just in others. In myself, too. So when I read a novel wherein the characters portrayed have no such qualms, it just makes me uncomfortable. I can _understand_ the characters’ feelings; understanding it and condoning it are two different things. But perhaps the point is to recognize what I might not have otherwise understood. It’s eye-opening. Maybe it’s foolish to say it _shouldn’t_ have been written that way. Maybe the point is that it was, and that it’s important to deal. Even when–especially when–it isn’t palatable. Maybe my problem isn’t that it was written down, but that it exists at all. And maybe I’m better off knowing that it does. I guess I learned a few things. (And I say that honestly.) And for those of you who have written off any concerns/questions of mine b/c it is “just a novel” with “made-up characters,” that’s really not the point. Fiction is just as powerful and just as real as non-fiction, in that it reflects the feelings of a particular author/culture/society/moment in time, etc., perhaps even more effectively than non-fiction, because it is more widely read by more groups of people. Storytellers are powerful people. I see no point in arguing that. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/84 "2003-06-30T08:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*Actually, the book is generally criticized for male-bashing, not white-bashing. Just as there are no “good” whites portrayed, there is only one good man in the whole book. \*\* No, I counted three. There was James, the widower who spent a chaste night with Bernadine and then sent her a letter which brought tears to my eyes, and there was Marvin, Gloria’s new neighbor. Then there was Michael, Robin’s co-worker. He was the one who said this: “You’re looking for a guy who will make you feel fireworks. And he may very well be out there. All I’m saying is, sometimes you have to work a little harder at _starting_ the fire, and it may burn a whole lot longer.” That speech clinched my decision to pursue Mr. Rilch (we’re both white; make of that what you will). I was disappointed to find that the movie skewed the character of Michael, robbing him of this degree of insight. Without it, he simply looked like a fool. But I guess the decision was made that if he made that speech to Robin and she still turned him down, **she** would look like a fool (as I thought she was when I read the book). Anyway. Three good men. Which one were you thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/85 "2003-06-30T12:13:50Z")
I had forgotten about the guy Bernadine had met. And I always thought of Michael as a buffoonish character. But I guess both were “good”. Gloria’s neighbor was the good guy I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/86 "2003-06-30T12:43:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > How _you_ doin’, **Collounsbury**? 😃 Sorry girl, too late, I seem to have possibly just gotten engaged just recently. Of course the subject of the same, if my memory serves, is yet another black banker, although this time a francophone. She may yet come to her senses, however. I seem to have a black woman banker fetish. Now if BNP Paribas can just transfer. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/87 "2003-06-30T14:01:46Z")
Wow, lots of interesting stuff in this thread. Now that it’s probably almost over, maybe it’s pointless to build one more level on top of it, but I just feel I have to say something about the relationship of an author to his or her work: I’m sure I’d be hard-pressed to find someone on these boards who is in favor of banning or censoring controversial books for the sake of political correctness.\* Most of us understand that _Huckleberry Finn_ represents slavery, but does not endorse it. That _To Kill A Mockingbird_ is not an idealized portrayal of race relations. That _Uncle Tom’s Cabin_ is not an instruction manual for the proper care and feeding of the negro in your stable. But the fact that there have been efforts to censor or ban these books shows that there are people who have problems distinguishing fiction from reality. They think that if an author portrays something in fiction, s/he must also endorse it and think it’s good. Not to mention that anyone who reads it will go out and imitate it, leading to the downfall of society. I almost cannot comprehend the level of disconnect from reality required to maintain this perception. It reminds me of people who watch _General Hospital_ and then go to the hospital looking for Luke and Laura (or whoever the characters on that show are). Salman Rushdie is in fear for his life because of insanity like this. No less than Chinua Achebe has called for the banning of Conrad’s _Heart of Darkness_. He didn’t just say he was creeped out by the racism in it, he actually wants it to be _banned!_\*\* I haven’t read _Waiting To Exhale_, but whatever offensiveness it contains, I’m absolutely unreserved in forgiving Terry MacMillan for it. Just as I am for Mark Twain, Harper Lee, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Salman Rushdie, and Joseph Conrad (unless _W.T.E._ were honest-to-goodness “Kill Whitey” literature, which it obviously is not). \*I _hate_ this expression. \*\*I grant that there are circumstances beyond my understanding surrounding Achebe’s opposition to the book, I just offer this as an example of an erasure of the line between author and product. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/88 "2003-06-30T16:25:44Z")
by **Linty Fresh** : > [@](#): > > I still stand by this, though: The whole beauty thing is not a racial issue. Feminist issue, certainly. But to say that it means anything that “the ugliest white woman in the world” could have fair skin, long flowing hair or European facial features (whatever those are) is to be naive about what constitutes beauty according to the fashion magazines. Possession of all three of these things–never mind one–doesn’t guarentee anyone anything as far as thathyper-Machiavellan world is concerned. I disagree with your belief that race has nothing to do with society’s standard of beauty. I can’t just dismiss what is in the media as only being about feminism, when it is impossible for me to turn on the TV, flip through fashion magazines, or watch movies without seeing a certain pattern of images that has every thing to do with race. No, there is no guarantee that having long flowing hair, fair skin, and other Europeanesque features will land you a modeling contract and a millionaire boyfriend. But if you look at the women who are most prized for their beauty in this country, lo and behold they tend to have these features. Either naturally or artificially. That tells me that in our society it is easier for a white person to be considered beautiful than it is for anyone else. Just as a chubby girl will compare herself to Christy Turlington and feel unattractive because of the weight differential, often a black girl bombared with images of white women who sport features that are foreign to her genetics, will also feel less than beautiful. When you don’t have role models that look like you, it is easy to feel as if there is something wrong with the way you look. A girl with very dark skin, a broad nose, thick lips, and big kinky hair will have to look _very_ hard to find a covergirl with her features. There are more black people with these particular features than black people with Halle Berry-like features. That doesn’t mean that Halle is not really black. It just means society hasn’t moved that far in terms of changing its biased standard of beauty considering that most of our black covergirls look more like white women with exceptional tans. Little boys live in the world that little girls do, and they’re affected by the same subliminal messages that affect their female counterparts. If little black girls feel at a disadvantage aesthetically, then little black boys wlll feel pulled toward admiring features that are not naturally prevalent in their race. This is one reason why you’ll see that more black men go with white women, then vice versa. So I disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/89 "2003-07-01T01:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by you with the face \* > \*\*by **Linty Fresh** : > This is one reason why you’ll see that more black men go with white women, then vice versa. > \*\* Is this something you have gleaned from personal observations? ---
**Author:** ![DEVA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@DEVA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DEVA)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/90 "2003-07-01T01:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*Well through all this arguing on racism, there appears to be consensus on one point. That is that any woman, black or white who marries a short order cook has done so due to limited choice. I find this attitude just as reprehensible as racism and sexism and boldly state that such an unfortunate attitude appears to predominate among the female gender. One should refrain from generalizing on the quality of humanity inherent among short order cooks, and I find that calling them “fry jockeys” is demeaning. > > Just fast food for thought. \*\* No, no, NO! This is NOT a point that anyone in this thread is making. Let me tell you something: my husband has worked his ass off to be a great father, husband and provider…BUT, I was the one that used to front all the money for entertainment (and more essential things later on) during the early years of our relationship. I would have been happy to keep him as a blue-collar kinda-guy simply because he rocks. I believe the point that was being made here is that “educated” women (particularly black women) usually prefer a man that is of equal or more education. This issue delves into a whooooole 'nother ball of wax that belongs in another thread. But the point: I don’t think many single women would turn down the fry-cook if he met her definition of attractive and viable. Hell, a good man is a good man. If he’s willing to treat you and himself with respect, is responsible and has a strong base of integrity…then it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/91 "2003-07-01T01:49:23Z")
by **Tony Montana** : > [@](#): > > Is this something you have gleaned from personal observations? Yes. Just so you know, I’m a black woman. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946/92 "2003-07-01T06:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tony Montana \* > \*\*Is this something you have gleaned from personal observations? \*\* That, and [the US Census.](http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt) Pesky statistics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racism/184946.md?page=4)